Ameviuans are kinda badly designed and the game offers no solutions

[Pappus]

The race is portrayed as a thing that can do everything well and doesn't like other races. So kind of what you can think of picking, when you want to go for a one race run, although you can of course do that with any race if you feel inclined to do so.

Production
The species bonus is multiplicative and the Amevians usually have a 1 there. That isn't well or good. Its one step away from terrible, because the bonus is multiplicative and thus could e.g. leverage your tool bonuses and so on.

Example:

6x Cantor with 8 tools produce 24 Paper with 0 education
6x Amevians with 8 tools produce 14.4 paper. Wirh 100%(0.4 for paper) education.

So basically they are average in a game revolving around pitching the right race at the right job to get the bonus chain going. Well they are good at fishing and one type of animal. That produces eggs. Can't even do anything with eggs or fish other than sell or consume.

Research
They prefer indoctrination, which translates into them becoming library cripples at -0,5. Of course educating them means you also accept a 0.9 happiness across the board. As you can't really educate some and indoctrinate others. It is either or.

School / Education

My amevians end up at 0.4 education instead of the max of 0.6 or 0,54 which would be 0.6% for every day of their long 90 days of becoming an adult. At this point I am not even sure why I pay paper for it, while university is free. It doesn't even matter as the entire process just becomes longer, which nullifies itself if you have enough offspring in production.

Fish
Well fish is of central importance for their reproduction and happiness. You want stacks of it, it consumes hard, but it also spoils very hard. In my case I ended up with only a small pond. Menas I have to import it in droves, although the population is small. Annoying to say the least, because they also aren't very productive in doing anything else other than eggs. If I spam eggs, the price will drop even further, while the fish price will increase.

So overall it really isn't that enjoyable to play them, when their benefit is not being "bad at anything", while actually being bad at everything. Every other race you could at least specialise on an entire sector and have fun with that. Not with them.

[Ravensblade]

I don't see what's exactly the problem. If they would be as good as other races in something they would be just overpowered.
They average across the board, and that's point.
I think you also miscontruct the problem since you compare them with unique race you are not able to choose, in the aspect they are best of.
It's like comparing that somebody is not average in running since he can't compete with top athletes. That's the point of being average.

If they could compete in any industry with races that specialised with them, then what’s the point of other races?
If playing single race would allow you the same production as doing mixed cities then what’s the point of doing mixed cites when they only add problems with no additional gain?

And you claim they are bad or terrible when the best races bonuses are something 140% bonus. So they not even as half as good as the terrible Amevias. At the same time the bad bonus is only 50% so Amevias are twice as effective then truly bad races at that.

[Pappus]

Originally posted by Ravensblade:

I don't see what's exactly the problem. If they would be as good as other races in something they would be just overpowered.
They average across the board, and that's point.
I think you also miscontruct the problem since you compare them with unique race you are not able to choose, in the aspect they are best of.
It's like comparing that somebody is not average in running since he can't compete with top athletes. That's the point of being average.

If they could compete in any industry with races that specialised with them, then what’s the point of other races?
If playing single race would allow you the same production as doing mixed cities then what’s the point of doing mixed cites when they only add problems with no additional gain?

And you claim they are bad or terrible when the best races bonuses are something 140% bonus. So they not even as half as good as the terrible Amevias. At the same time the bad bonus is only 50% so Amevias are twice as effective then truly bad races at that.

Numerically speaking bad is at around 38% for food. Their "being average" sits at 44%, while good is 78%. They aren't average. They are bad.

For mines they are actually bad across the board with nobody being worse except argonosh. What is their advantage there? That they aren't worse? They arent any better than the average.

For refining they sit at 50% like basically everyone else except garthimis. So what is their advantage there? That they aren't garthimis?

Civics everyone is the same basically. Again no advantage.

We could also single out the humans, that have them beat almost everywhere, while still being able to mix race conveniently and having their competitive advantage in one sector.

[annie]

i think jack of all trades just isn't a valuable archetype at the moment, and i lay the blame primarily on the slavery system. there is no benefit when it's so trivial to use slaves to fill in the gaps in your economy, and they have zero downsides. even races with similar xenophobia like tiliapi have zero issues with slaves since the racial harmony mechanics dont apply to slaves

[Chaotic Woofer]

Amevias have the nichest niche that is "They're good if you're in a warm climate.". But that's about it. Outside that their greatest advantage is they're about on par with Dondo's in regards to combat but do still have access to breeding. This itself is, middling, because combat stats outside the Argonosh or Cantors can simply be ignored for the most part. I kinda of see them as an opt in race. Either you play as them and just enslave everything else, or you don't play as them and never use them because they don't play well with others and enslaving them is a headache. Also as previously stated, in regards to being well rounded humans trump them along with being the best at honestly the most powerful aspect of the game which is technology and administration. In my opinion, outside like role playing or wanting to do a hyper specific run, most of the races are suspect to main when Humans, Dondos and Cantors work in pretty much perfect unity while offering the greatest benefits across the board.

TLDR: Amevias are basically just there so you can say "I wanna play as a dragonborn."

[Pappus]

Originally posted by Chaotic Woofer:

Amevias have the nichest niche that is "They're good if you're in a warm climate.". But that's about it. Outside that their greatest advantage is they're about on par with Dondo's in regards to combat but do still have access to breeding. This itself is, middling, because combat stats outside the Argonosh or Cantors can simply be ignored for the most part. I kinda of see them as an opt in race. Either you play as them and just enslave everything else, or you don't play as them and never use them because they don't play well with others and enslaving them is a headache. Also as previously stated, in regards to being well rounded humans trump them along with being the best at honestly the most powerful aspect of the game which is technology and administration. In my opinion, outside like role playing or wanting to do a hyper specific run, most of the races are suspect to main when Humans, Dondos and Cantors work in pretty much perfect unity while offering the greatest benefits across the board.

TLDR: Amevias are basically just there so you can say "I wanna play as a dragonborn."

Yeah basically this. I basically picked them for my first playthrough because lizard and no hassle of mixing, because they are average. Later I realized that this game has a very different definition of average. At the very least this thread can guide the dev to maybe fiddle around a bit with the races.

[Chaotic Woofer]

Kinda tricky to balance considering what it is but, honestly? I would make them straight up brick houses. Like comparable to Garths and Dondos and some. To the point "Yes it is viable to get a bunch of lizard bros with clubs and sticks and just beat down your neighbors." While this may seem overpowered, Garths can very easily be buddy buddy with the Argonosh, breed absurdly quickly and while they're **not** good at much you just go the Sauron route and whip bodies at the wall until things get accomplished. Also Garths are **better** at surviving in warm climates (which the Argonosh also just so happen to inhabit). When the Amevias greatest advantage is the fact they do well in warm climates, they're not even the best at that. If Amevias acted like the middle ground between the main races and the two haven based races in regards to military might, then they'd be fairly viable and worth using despite their lack of an economic or industrial backbone. Currently they can only really produce their food and have to rely on taking in slaves to fuel their industry to setup a war machine. In reality they should be able to produce their own food, be the war machine, and use said war machine to fuel their industry by taking in slaves

[Lantantan]

I agree with OP. playing the lizards feels rather unsatisfying. Indeed, the only thing they're good at is making the worst kinds of food. At least the elves get leather as a side product. And at least elf cities feel different. Lizard city is just human city in desert with some open sewer water ditches.

[Subak]

They're the only ones I've done well with, lol.

But really, it sounds like you just gimped yourself hard on settling a pond.

Settle something with more fish. With a pond, that means their houses probably aren't in fresh water either and I think they really want that.

I haven't figured out how to do well with anyone else.

I'm beginning to think a massive amount is map seed. I don't tend to doctor my maps up with the edit but some just have happened to be really nice and one for the Amevians was apparently primo.

[Judaspriester]

their description clearly states that they really like fish and water. so picking a map with just a pond makes me feel like there was already a big mistake here to start with.

Then Subak, you're right, the map seed plays a major roll. I usually do a few rerolls both on the world map as well as on the city map until I get something I'm satisfied with (not rolling for a perfect one). Since you can easily sink 100h into a map if the run goes well, I think it's worth the effort to spend like 30 minutes before you actually start.

For the race itself... right now I got a Tilapi run with dondos, humans and pig slaves, which works really well, since tilapy really like slaves but doesn't like other plebs that much. But for V66 I also want to grab the achivement for 5k in warm biome, so once I'm done with my current city I'll give the lizzards a try as main race and see how it goes.

[AldouzTek]

"because they are average. Later I realized that this game has a very different definition of average"
Yeah I realized that too after 600+ hours of game play.

[Porky]

Map seeds that play to the strengths of your race seem crucial to this game. The reroll buttons are there for a reason. If you're wanting the best outcome for your city, a great leader would scout around for both the best physical environment for survival but also the best political layout for trading and alliances/ global domination. Similarly, gimping your start to make the gameplay more difficult is just as viable for the veteran player. I appreciate your insights on the race overall. There's nothing wrong with looking for the best possible starting location for your intended playthrough.

[Pappus]

Originally posted by Porky:

Map seeds that play to the strengths of your race seem crucial to this game. The reroll buttons are there for a reason. If you're wanting the best outcome for your city, a great leader would scout around for both the best physical environment for survival but also the best political layout for trading and alliances/ global domination. Similarly, gimping your start to make the gameplay more difficult is just as viable for the veteran player. I appreciate your insights on the race overall. There's nothing wrong with looking for the best possible starting location for your intended playthrough.

But even on a puny pond map I don't have problems. The economical part of the game is easy enough. You can always do something and get what you need. The point is more about this being badly designed as a whole.

Even if you load up half an ocean onto your map. They are still not good in any mine, and basically terrible at everything else except eggs and fish. Those two resources aren't exactly exciting.

[Chaotic Woofer]

I mean, the main issue with the race has nothing to do with what map seed and location you use for your capital. The issue is their drawbacks don't outweigh their benefits. If you're playing lizard boys the go to strat is living next to a sweet water pond with high fertility in a warm climate. You then focus on their strengths which is fish and egg production. This results in your exports being excess fish, eggs, meat because they don't care about it and livestock. So about this? Garths play more or less the same but are easier to maintain and are prone to population explosions to the point *you literally do not care if 100+ of your garth die randomly because you can just make more*. I tried to focus on Lizard boys when aiming for Ruler of the Sedge and Bee. Wasn't worth it, extremely slow growth, low economic and industrial potential, hell they even have their religions split so you're dealing with opposition. The question isn't "How to play Lizard boys well." the question is "Why even play Lizard boys?". Garths will trump them in warm climate by sheer number and productive output, Humans will trump them in warm or any climate because they're better all round. Lizard boys are decent soldiers, but have fun actually equipping your first division and supplying it before you can reliably use said soldiers. If the solution to compensating for the most xenophobic species weakness is "Well just buy slaves." then this just reinforces the initial question of "Why even play lizard boys?" when you can do that with ever other race. As it currently stands, Amevias are setup to be "The Elite Few." species. You don't have many and they don't play well with others. So the idea is they're suppose to be self sufficient and hold their ground against most opposition. The reality is they just aren't

[Pappus]

Originally posted by Chaotic Woofer:

I mean, the main issue with the race has nothing to do with what map seed and location you use for your capital. The issue is their drawbacks don't outweigh their benefits. If you're playing lizard boys the go to strat is living next to a sweet water pond with high fertility in a warm climate. You then focus on their strengths which is fish and egg production. This results in your exports being excess fish, eggs, meat because they don't care about it and livestock. So about this? Garths play more or less the same but are easier to maintain and are prone to population explosions to the point *you literally do not care if 100+ of your garth die randomly because you can just make more*. I tried to focus on Lizard boys when aiming for Ruler of the Sedge and Bee. Wasn't worth it, extremely slow growth, low economic and industrial potential, hell they even have their religions split so you're dealing with opposition. The question isn't "How to play Lizard boys well." the question is "Why even play Lizard boys?". Garths will trump them in warm climate by sheer number and productive output, Humans will trump them in warm or any climate because they're better all round. Lizard boys are decent soldiers, but have fun actually equipping your first division and supplying it before you can reliably use said soldiers. If the solution to compensating for the most xenophobic species weakness is "Well just buy slaves." then this just reinforces the initial question of "Why even play lizard boys?" when you can do that with ever other race. As it currently stands, Amevias are setup to be "The Elite Few." species. You don't have many and they don't play well with others. So the idea is they're suppose to be self sufficient and hold their ground against most opposition. The reality is they just aren't

Yes exactly this.

You aren't getting what is being pitched. This isn't about difficulty or map seed. It is about a race that is supposed to play solo and be good at everything. In reality you are bad at everything and the game revolves around multiple races and fine tuning each one, but you can't even fine tune your population because you just have one.

Like Education vs Indoctrination. They would need to be able to do both, but the game doesn't give that as an option.

[Subak]

Originally posted by Porky:

There's nothing wrong with looking for the best possible starting location for your intended playthrough.

Except actually doing it.

I'm just not a big fan of that part of the 'meta game'.

That aspect of the game is just arbitrarily cumbersome-hard instead of challenging. Two times now I've spent 15-20 minutes probing and nothing seems right.