Clothing System Unrealistic And Poorly Balanced

[Forlorn]

Happy New Years! It takes 16% of my entire population dedicated to clothing production just to keep plebs from being nude. Why so high?

(BTW v65)

1. Average piece of clothing lasts 10 days, which is less than a year (12). Even my cheapest clothes IRL have lasted more than one year, even some work clothes that I wear almost every day.

2. All clothes decay at same rate in SoS, which means if you allow your plebs to have more clothes then instead of providing them with 2 clothes every 10 days you have to provide them with 3, 4, etc. Allowing more clothes just means that much more consumption is multiplied.

In reality, the more clothes someone has, the slower their decay becomes because they can wear different items each day thus spreading out wear and tear. Now yes, clothes can decay on their own due to moths or time, but this decay is leagues slower than if one were to actually wear the item constantly.


Thus, points 1 and 2 show that clothing breaks the immersion in SoS, which I think is very bad for the game since so much is modeled to be as "real" as possible within a fantasy setting. It's completely unrealistic at how many clothes plebs consume. To keep my current settlement of ~800 clothed, I am using 23 cotton farmers (warm climate too!), 39 hunters set to fur production, 34 weavers, and 35 tailors, and all it gets me is enough clothing to barely keep 1 item on all of my plebs.

That's 131 plebs out of ~800 dedicated to clothing production just so they aren't naked, which then also makes it exceedingly difficult to field armies on top of that who also have huge clothing demands. That's 16% of my entire population dedicated to a single item's bare minimum requirements!


Suggested fixes -

1. Decrease decay rate of clothing. 10 days is far too short, not even a year, and this is clothing made out of animal hides or cotton cloth? There's no way it should be so frail. 15 days, which is a little over a year, a 50% increase from the current rate, sounds about right from a balance perspective. This would mean I need only 8% of my population dedicated to clothing just to keep plebs from being nude (1 item each except on the minority races, who I give 2 items so their loyalty doesn't tank, with my majority garthimi's being 565 pop). 8% of one's population dedicated to a basic job just so plebs aren't nude is still pretty high, but a good difficulty.

2. The more clothing some has, the lower the decay rate of the individual clothing should become, since the pleb will be able to alternate how often they wear an outfit. That said, there are still moths and other sources of decay of clothing in a medieval world (let's say 5 years), so I do not think decay rates should merely decrease multiplicatively, but instead according to a more nuanced percentage based formula:

(Wear Decay rate * number of clothes owned) - (number of clothes owned / storage decay rate) * 100.

TL; DR below

Current implementation -

So currently the wear decay rate is 10 days. If you allow a pleb 3 items then that means they need 3 clothes every 10 days. This is way too high and makes no sense.

Proposed implementation -

wear decay rate: 15 days
decay rate in storage: 60 days

I assume the average piece of clothing can last 5 years in storage no problems, so storage decay rate is 60 days.

Thus I take a percentage of the storage decay rate and subtract it from the clothing worn decay rate.

So the above formula, for 3 clothes becomes 40 days for the average pleb's clothing decay rate.

(15 days Wear Decay rate * 3 clothes owned) - (3 clothes owned / 60 days storage decay rate) * 100 = 40 days.

Adding more clothing to a pleb should do more than merely increase their happiness, it should also increase the efficiency of their clothing but still not be as efficient as only allowing them 1 item at a time. The above formula does that.

[ZirzoR]

V65 Here.

2.5k Pop: 1.6k Humans, 800 or so Cretonian slaves + children.

1: I have Access to clothing set to 4 for Humans and Slaves

2: 150 Weavers, with 72 Tailors, using Imported Cotton. (All Upgraded with metal & with some basic research increases)

So that's 222 Workers out of a 2.5k+ population. (9% Or so, Would be 7-8% if I played Dondorians)

I get enough clothes for everyone to use 4 sets, and I get to export Fabric/Clothes to get back denars of the imported cotton while also making a profit. (I dont even have dondorians working in the workshops)

Small tip, never go for cotton farms, Use pastures (If Temperate/Cold) or Imports and save yourself a bunch of workers. (Cotton is really cheap almost everywhere, especially in warm climates)

Please dont make the game easier.

I dont know where you get the unbalance, you just simply have to sort out the amounts and use research/tools/upgrades to make sure your output per worker is much higher.

Quality over Quantity in this game boyo, not the other way around.

(Before getting to this stage, simply use hearths and the nudist Title and just dont make clothes until you're ready)

[Forlorn]

"(Before getting to this stage, simply use hearths and the nudist Title and just dont make clothes until you're ready)"

So this the real reason for your game being too easy. The fact you can cheese the game by letting your plebs go nude with no consequences is ridiculous.

Nudity should have seriously increased risk of death and injury, from disease, exposure to the elements, and occupational hazards.

[JiveTurkey]

Make a mod for it! The workshop is that-a-way ->

[Wilhelm]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

V65 Here.

2.5k Pop: 1.6k Humans, 800 or so Cretonian slaves + children.

1: I have Access to clothing set to 4 for Humans and Slaves

2: 150 Weavers, with 72 Tailors, using Imported Cotton. (All Upgraded with metal & with some basic research increases)

So that's 222 Workers out of a 2.5k+ population. (9% Or so, Would be 7-8% if I played Dondorians)

I get enough clothes for everyone to use 4 sets, and I get to export Fabric/Clothes to get back denars of the imported cotton while also making a profit. (I dont even have dondorians working in the workshops)

Small tip, never go for cotton farms, Use pastures (If Temperate/Cold) or Imports and save yourself a bunch of workers. (Cotton is really cheap almost everywhere, especially in warm climates)

Please dont make the game easier.

I dont know where you get the unbalance, you just simply have to sort out the amounts and use research/tools/upgrades to make sure your output per worker is much higher.

Quality over Quantity in this game boyo, not the other way around.

(Before getting to this stage, simply use hearths and the nudist Title and just dont make clothes until you're ready)

your comments everywhere here are just as important as they could be.

if the dev would listen to those comments/ threads here... the game would be nerved into the ground.

git gud sounds offensive but it really isn´t... the game currently has ALL the instruments to let you thrive with everything maxed up to eleven even in the wastelands.

thats much more satisfying... for all the others: why not try easier settings first? swallow your pride and try on easy. work your way up.

[Forlorn]

Originally posted by Wüstenfuchs:

your comments everywhere here are just as important as they could be.

if the dev would listen to those comments/ threads here... the game would be nerved into the ground.

git gud sounds offending but it really isn´t... the game currently has ALL the instruments to let you thrive with everything maxed up to eleven even in the wastelands.

What are you talking about... the game is absurdly easy because there are barely any consequences to nudity. Not because clothes are made out of paper.

[ZirzoR]

Originally posted by Forlorn:

Snip...

All Immigrants and children start out with 2 sets of clothing, they're not "nude" until they use those up, there is a nudist achievement in the game and a title for a reason, its supposed to enable the focus on other things in the early game. (Also dondorians are more hardy aswell)

If you spend 15+% of your population to do something that's not profitable and doesn't even break even, you're just doing it wrong, I'm sorry, but that just sounds like a "Git Gud" thing to me.

It's not unbalanced, you simply just have to play the game more and get an understanding on what works and what doesn't.

Game's not easy because a single item in the world isn't used for a few hours in the early game. (Absurd logic)

Around the 50 year mark I have sets of clothes for everyone just fine, with 500-800 people. (I use titles and nobility aswell, since you're supposed to)

Clothes are made out of paper, because its "realistic" in this world, if they lasted any longer, you could only dedicated a 4-5% amount to make 4 sets of clothes for everyone and never having to care about it. (Which again makes it easier)

Try to read the rest of my post and not cherry pick so much.

Just because you dont know how it works, doesn't make it unbalanced.

I really hope the dev stops listening to these things and makes the game harder instead, it's just wrong.

Just look up "The Fiends" Videos on youtube and you'll see, his last video was just so sad, literally just bulldozing the entire world with zero effort, has so many slaves he doesn't even know what to do with them and just sits there doing nothing for the entire episode, games too easy, that's just how it is.

ooof.

[Forlorn]

Game's not easy because a single item in the world isn't used for a few hours in the early game. (Absurd logic)

A few hours in real life = several years in game time. Your logic is the absurd one here, you think it's okay people can go nude with no consequences for years? In any form of realism 100% of your village is dead over a hot summer or cold winter. It shouldn't even be possible for nude citizens to leave hearth or home in winter, or go out in scorching sun in a hot summer without clothing.

No wonder people think the game is easy! The Dev needs to add realism to the game and make it hard.

Clothes are made out of paper, because its "realistic" in this world, if they lasted any longer, you could only dedicated a 4-5% amount to make 4 sets of clothes for everyone and never having to care about it. (Which again makes it easier)

So then the problem is that it's too easy to satisfy people's clothing needs. The amount of clothes they should need to be completely fulfilled should be increased to 10.

- Make clothing real, and last years like it should
- Consequences for nudity should be severe
- Fulfillment for clothing should be much higher, and species specific. Garthimi can be less picky while humans and tsipi's might need 15 or 20 sets of clothes to be totally fulfilled.

Clothing system needs an overhaul and has a lot of room to add depth, immersion, and challenge to the game.

[salzlaender]

Just wanted to throw in that the game has a surprising amount of appr. correct worker use.

Clothes are one example. 16% is a good ballpark number fort reality. Don't forget that the game does not have housewives who do all the cooking and weaving. Making clothes before the industrialization takes up a huge amount of work - which is why it was patched and reused so often after all.

Of course if you could, you would have gotten yourself better clothes - maybe even more than one good set for all the big events in your whole life. And if you were rich, you would have more expensive clothes.
And I think THAT is what the game is doing with the 4 sets. Instead of having "patchwork clothes", "normal clothes", "good clothes" and "rich person clothes" you have just one type and distribute up to 4 times the work amount.



"- Make clothing real, and last years like it should"
You have years consisting of 16 days, children that go work as a hauler or scientist with 6 years and THAT is your problem? ;)

[ZirzoR]

Originally posted by Forlorn:

Snip...

Ohh, I guess I was wrong to take you seriously, I thought you we're actually talking about the game, and not your made-up real life fantasy world.

My bad I guess.

It's just a troll guys, false alarm.

I won't be responding to this thread again.

[Forlorn]

Originally posted by ZirzoR:

Originally posted by Forlorn:

Snip...

Ohh, I guess I was wrong to take you seriously, I thought you we're actually talking about the game, and not your made-up real life fantasy world.

My bad I guess.

It's just a troll guys, false alarm.

I won't be responding to this thread again. :ErannorthRebornYorik::gearthumbsup:

"I have lost the argument, and will now flounce out of the thread."

[Forlorn]

Originally posted by salzlaender:

Just wanted to throw in that the game has a surprising amount of appr. correct worker use.

Clothes are one example. 16% is a good ballpark number fort reality. Don't forget that the game does not have housewives who do all the cooking and weaving. Making clothes before the industrialization takes up a huge amount of work - which is why it was patched and reused so often after all.

16% to supply people with barely one set of clothes? Uh, no, it's 16% so people could have many many sets of clothes, the rich especially having hundreds. This is true today and in the past. Even in the poorest countries in the world today everyone has at least one set of clothes.

So 16% should be what I need if I want to max out my citizen's fulfillment, but not what I need just to keep them from being nude.

And I think THAT is what the game is doing with the 4 sets. Instead of having "patchwork clothes", "normal clothes", "good clothes" and "rich person clothes" you have just one type and distribute up to 4 times the work amount.

Again, this makes no sense, unless you're wearing all of your clothes at once why would there be 4 times as much work?

"- Make clothing real, and last years like it should"
You have years consisting of 16 days, children that go work as a hauler or scientist with 6 years and THAT is your problem? ;)

Yes because it is a problem that probably requires dev work to ultimately fix. Children growing up too fast is an easy fix, just one number change, with many mods to address it already on the workshop.

[Strobocop]

how long does it take to get the nudist achievement ? 2k pop here with 0 piece of cloth allowed since almost the start and i'm still waiting for the achievement.

[herr_dechse]

Maybe make it last a year and then call it a day. A 50% increase is way to much.

[ambi]

Originally posted by Strobocop:

how long does it take to get the nudist achievement ? 2k pop here with 0 piece of cloth allowed since almost the start and i'm still waiting for the achievement.

i'm not sure. i only got about 600-700 ppl and got the achievement.

edit: also, immigrants come with clothing.

[Judaspriester]

First of all, if you need 16% of your pop just for maintaining 2 cloths per pop, that sounds for me like an poorly optimized production line.

My current town: 4.2k pop, 112 weavers, 64 tailors, therefore ~4% of pop. My ruler race with ~1.7k pop gets 3 cloths, the slaves 2. I still have a full storage of 14.5k cloths, as well as 15.2k Fabrics.

And about titles. You can pick a max of 5 per game. Nudist is easy to get if you really want it and just needs a little patience. It gives your pop 0.1 to cold and warm resistance, that's worth 0.2 cloths for cold and 0.1 cloth for heat, therefore far from OP, especially if you settle outside the temperate climate. You could combine this with lifebringer (which takes ALOT longer to obtain) in order to soften the clothing issue early on (or at least the health side of it), but with growing pop, you still need clothing later on.
Besides that, it means 2 of 5 boni already gone mainly for clothing. I would prefere titles like "First of their name", Richest of Kings", "The Artisan" or "Seer of the Gods" in stead, which scale way better into the later stages of the game.