Newbie with frustrations.

[Burden of Brine]

So I got this game very recently. Been playing it a whole lot during the weekend.
Did two small test games, and also the tutorial, these didn't really matter as it was mostly to learn UI.

My first proper game was as the bugmans, Garthimi? Temperate climate. I learned quickly that they are kinda trash quite many things. Ended up having a colony of a little over 100 citizens by the end, 2/3rds being bugmen and 1/3rd being humans. The Humans were obtained solely to sit in laboratories to THINK REAL GOOD as my bugs aren't into that kinda nerd stuff. But after 100 citizens I kinda figured I wasn't gonna make good headway as a civilization relying primarily on bugmans. They simply aren't good enough at advanced industry and definitely not at nerding. So I abandon the colony to try something else, in hopes of learning more about the game.

Next colony? Dwarves(Dorani?) in the cold north. Settled along a river with basically no trees, mostly because in a nearby mountain there was a big plot of coal and a big plot of ore right next to eachother. There were some trees in the north so I figure, if I can just make a woodchop plot there i have infinite wood at least.

That colony lasted me until about 265 citizens before I called it quits, as it had simply stalled out. I simply could not be self-reliant by the looks of it; trying to do food industry in fish, mushrooms, and wheat+bread, as well as woodchop+furniture crafting, as well as mining stone to turn into cut stone, AS WELL as harvesting coal+ore to make metal+tools...

It just stalled out at some point. Not enough happiness to get more migrants. No clear way of increasing happiness. And I was incredibly frustrated with needing some 70+ asshats sitting in a laboratory just to not forget how to bake bread anymore, during a brief spot of famine after the hunting lodge ran out, but I turned the famine around by going big on fish industry to tide me over. Mushrooms were basically useless as I wasn't making enough 23x23 plots for it to be really worth, and even then I doubt it would be enough. Also had 3 sheep farms of about 40x20 size or so. About 40 sheep in each. At least those guys fueled my brief stint in the tailoring industry before I had to give that up just to get more nerd points for other more important things.

But I learned a great many things, and I figured I'd head further south next, play as the all-rounder humans, with intent to make big opiate farms and rely on trading and whatnot. And also to focus more on raising children and getting a school to see how educated humans would fare...

I stalled out at 65 citizens, then a raid showed up, and as I was flat broke from importing metal and pottery and cut stone, they invaded me with 10 people. Said 10 people was going to be the end of me as I had no military, as that unlocks at 100 citizens, and I at least found no way to cobble together an angry mob of peasants as desperate last means of defense or anything.

So that attempt was a complete dud. Maybe next will fare better.

My bug+human setup got me a title to make the settlements start out a bit quicker at least, with 20 people and more resources, due to the 100 citizen = title achievo. So at least I got something tangible out of that game.

The 265 pop dorf town taught me many things, but I was VERY disappointed in there being no title at 250 popcap to further boost my next attempt to get that set up faster. And most of the titles seem to be geared towards getting very big milestones reached in a single run, so getting those trading titles or even 1000 citizens titles feel extremely out of my reach currently.

That I find disappointing, especially as you can select up to 5 titles to benefit from; having some easier to get titles when still trying to get a feel of the game would be pretty great to have, as I currently feel like I will make very little tangible progress until hitting those big milestone titles.

And research. My god. It is a very neat concept and all, but once I realized I need to invest some 9200~ nerd points to unlock a lab upgrade and then get the library, which needs to be continuously fed paper, just to have a hope of not needing to invest a fifth of my population on just sitting crapping, and eating all goshdarn day just to remember how to bake bread?

I do not like it. I'd very much like to have an option somewhere to make it have no cap and just keep earning points, even if at a greatly reduced rate. Having so many nerds sitting around doing NOTHING to actively contribute to my economy and survival is likely my biggest pet peeve with the game so far.

The Noble system is pretty cool though, but I was a bit disappointed when I realized I couldn't do dumb stuff like getting multiple Nobles of the same title to just skyrocket a particular benefit. It is a fair limitation though, and I will have to figure out what to get more carefully in the future.

And while I eventually figured out that different food makers are good in different ways, I gotta say I am very disappointed in the output of animal farms. I guess I need at least 5 50x50 farms for it to even start being useful for the 100-300~ pop range? I sure as hell can't afford to get efficiency increases though, given the way technology is currently set up.

tl;dr still trying to get good, is a neat game, looking forward to seeing how it progresses, but there is a few key areas I am not particularly impressed or thrilled with currently. Worth the 21 eurobux at least.

Addendum: Yeah, I am typically not one to play epic colony management games and all, but I do have some fondness for colony management and strategy games. Might just be that what Songs of Syx sets out to do simply isn't compatible with my playstyle in the end, and that is fine; some games and people simply aren't compatible.

[foreigner FRANK]

Positive growth and being self sufficient is very difficult. I find it much easier to focus on a money maker and import what I need. This play style will keep your happiness in the 90 / 100% and your growth will skyrocket. Then you can slowly turn off the import tap while you create your own industries. Find what your race excels in ( pigmen love farming and are good at it ). Grow opium ( choose a warm climate the lowest penalty for opium growth ) . Export opium and import what you need.

[Burden of Brine]

Originally posted by Lord Goldcock:

/Snip Grow opium ( choose a warm climate the lowest penalty for opium growth ) . Export opium and import what you need.

Yeah, that was the plan for my most recent colony. That got taken out by a raid I found no possible way to defend myself against. Admittedly I wasn't going to stay around to see if they intended to destroy my throneroom or not, so maybe I missed out on something.

I'll repeat that attempt all the same, after I've had some food, and see how it goes.

[Hoggypare]

I feel like you should never expect your cities to be truly self-sustaining - SoS has a big emphasis on trade, in fact, you can set permanent trade routes to make up for any lack of resources.
A much better way is to specialize, play to the strenghts of your races, and find creative ways of getting what you need in other ways. For example, yes, Garithmis are bad at great many things - but what they excel at is war (and you do not need to do a lot to make them happy, thus making growing their population easier). You can literally look for some weak neighbours, and raid them regularly to get riches for very little in terms of investment. Also, taking slaves makes up for their ineptitude in production

[Gamatron]

Originally posted by Burden of Brine:

Originally posted by Lord Goldcock:

/Snip Grow opium ( choose a warm climate the lowest penalty for opium growth ) . Export opium and import what you need.

Yeah, that was the plan for my most recent colony. That got taken out by a raid I found no possible way to defend myself against. Admittedly I wasn't going to stay around to see if they intended to destroy my throneroom or not, so maybe I missed out on something.

I'll repeat that attempt all the same, after I've had some food, and see how it goes.

Please try the new beta if you still have a fresh and uncorrupted soul. I'd like to hear more about how you perceive it. I do not want the remove the current tech mechanics, I would like to drastically reduce the need for it, and move the focus towards resources instead. But right now, the tech is what's making you feel that you're progressing without having you become completely OP.

[Burden of Brine]

Originally posted by Hoggypare:

I feel like you should never expect your cities to be truly self-sustaining - SoS has a big emphasis on trade /Snip

So I am starting to learn with this second attempt at a Warm-climate Human colony. Tho I ended up not doing Opiate for export; apparently Eggs are super valuable in this run, so enormous 100~ Globdien ranches are my main source of export(and some meat for ration making on the side) currently.

Originally posted by Hoggypare:

Garithmis are bad at great many things - but what they excel at is war (and you do not need to do a lot to make them happy, thus making growing their population easier). You can literally look for some weak neighbours, and raid them regularly to get riches for very little in terms of investment. Also, taking slaves makes up for their ineptitude in production

I suppose this might be my goal for the fourth(ish) colony attempt then; a new try with the bugmanz, with more emphasis on trying to get into a fighting and raiding stage of developement. Combat is something I haven't really had encounters with so far, minus the fast end of my previous Warm-clime Trader Humans.

Originally posted by Gamatron:

Please try the new beta if you still have a fresh and uncorrupted soul. I'd like to hear more about how you perceive it. I do not want the remove the current tech mechanics, I would like to drastically reduce the need for it, and move the focus towards resources instead. But right now, the tech is what's making you feel that you're progressing without having you become completely OP.

I'll give the Beta a go once I have achieved my main goal for my current run; unlocking 'Master of Bargains' and 'The Negotiator'. I feel having those two under my belt will make future colonies much more successful. About a third of the way there so far, but I am starting to rack up a lot of Bartering improvements now so shouldn't be impossible at least.

I doubt I'd count as an uncorrupt soul, but my eyes are still fairly fresh in regards to Songs of Syx so fair enough there. I wouldn't want the tech setup removed either, honestly, and I hope the Beta brings along great improvements to it. Feeding resources into it might be better, as in the current live version I find it to be entirely egregious how many eggheads you need to invest... Though I have now attained the first Laboratory upgrade, and it did give a decent leg up I suppose. But from what I can tell, nowhere near enough to make it an easy ride to reach the actual Library unlock. I am hoping the Beta got that one less cumbersome to reach.

Tho now I seem to be stalling out at around 250~ citizens again, though I am giving nurseries and school a try now, so maybe that can get me out of this slump eventually. Though again, this colony will likely only last until I get the two titles unlocked. I hope more of them get added in the future, with a bit more niche/targetted benefits that aren't quite so involved to unlock...

Something like 'Forge Lord' title, perhaps giving a small bonus to Ore/Smelt/Smith rates and maybe a tiny bit to Offence/Defence Skills? For those that would want to focus on gearing up warriors and combat performance regardless of what race they play as, I'm thinking here. No idea how to go about unlocking that though... Having an Ore Mine, Metal Smelter, and Smithy with 20~ workers in each? Probably a fairly marginal requirement in the grand scheme of things, but I'd find it a decent enough goal to work towards as a newcomer to the game.

[Hoggypare]

When you say you stall around 250 citizens, what is your problem? People do not immigrate anymore?

If so, the problem might be happiness related. Check your citizens needs tab, and try to address what seems most lacking. Maybe you make some mistakes you are not really aware of.

Also, as for the number of eggheads needed. Bear in mind, that as most bonuses are percentage based, the more you upscale everything - production, population and demand, the more valuable the research becomes

That is why, the bigger your city, the more issues you need to address, but your capabilities also increase. You can have more researchers, soldiers etc. compared to just people working in production then. That is why you really need to focus on making your pops happy, which will bring more of them, which will expand your means of production.

[Burden of Brine]

Originally posted by Hoggypare:

When you say you stall around 250 citizens, what is your problem? People do not immigrate anymore?

If so, the problem might be happiness related. Check your citizens needs tab, and try to address what seems most lacking. Maybe you make some mistakes you are not really aware of.
/Snip

Happiness, food, whatever the reason it was difficult to break through the 250 pop barrier. Though at this point I am sitting at 350 instead, and with enough surplus for me to sell bread and even rations to faster reach the million buckaroo trade value for the titles. Currently at around 600k out of the million so heading thataways pretty fast now.

And aye, I've figured out the needs tabs, though they still mystify me a bit at times. Paying close attention to reading the fine print that says that your race do or does not care about any given thing is also important, I've found.

Originally posted by Hoggypare:

Also, as for the number of eggheads needed. Bear in mind, that as most bonuses are percentage based, the more you upscale everything - production, population and demand, the more valuable the research becomes

That is why, the bigger your city, the more issues you need to address, but your capabilities also increase. You can have more researchers, soldiers etc. compared to just people working in production then. That is why you really need to focus on making your pops happy, which will bring more of them, which will expand your means of production.

I am starting to get some grip of this, that multipliers are the stars of the show that is. Which is probably why specializing in one key area and using that to trade for everything else is so good. I suppose it makes sense really; early on you are basically a trading outpost trying to earn enough cash to get bare necessities. I guess gameplay with over a thousand population is a whole different ballpark in comparison.

It was mostly the initial hurdle of getting over the tech bottleneck while still surviving that is making the first 200 or so citizens a chore for me so far. But once I have the Bargainer and Negotiator titles I think things will work out far more smoothly in the future.

But once I have those titles, it is Beta test time, to see what lies in store for the future of the game, as per Gamatrons request.

[Burden of Brine]

Alright, I have tried the ea63 Beta a little bit now. Played as Humans in Temperate Climate. First impressions: Very nice to have more basic amenities like lavatory and speaker unlocked from the get go. And having military unlocked at 30 pop rather than having to wait all the way to 100 is great even if one might not have a lot of spare people to keep training at that point.

On a similiar note unlocking a bunch of lawkeeping buildings for free upon reaching 150 pop is also great, though I somewhat miss getting that first noble at 100 pop. It is not a huge loss or anything, but I miss it all the same, but having an interim title there just for that is likely not ideal either.

Having childrearing unlock at 350 pop is probably okay, as by that time you are likely set up enough to start having the resources to care for the lil anklebiters. Though if I were to make any change it'd likely be making Sheriff be at 100 pop and Mayor at 250 pop. Maybe with 1 Noble at Leader. But that is from the perspective of someone that have yet to even cross 500 people, and just want to get all the more basic gameplay elements unlocked fairly 'early' before the slog to the thousands and thousands of citizens begin.

I was a bit confused by the UI at first, particularly in trying to find the activate/deactivate option from a cursory glance. Personally I'd probably prefer the typical 'Power Button' icon rather than a lock, but that might clash a bit with the medieval aesthetic so it would be reasonable not to go through with that particular alternative.

Side tangent; I just learnt that I am terrible at planning for noise disturbance in my city planning, but after that I also learnt that building double-thick walls completely shuts in noise. Though the entrance still let out a lot of noise but that could be alleviated a little bit by doing some weird corridor nonsense. Probably better to just make actual plans for city building though.

As for what I was less impressed with regarding ea63 Beta branch... It feels as if all production buildings are much slower now? Stone Mine, Woodcutter, Clay Mine(which is now needed for something as simple as the Eatery??), not to mention the Carpenter! The Carpenter was churning out furniture super slow, so that became quite a big bottleneck early on.

The double-whammy of baseline production seemingly being tuned down, as well as needing BOTH research AND resource investment to increase it to what I assume was the old baseline, felt like a slap with a mildly chilly trout to the face. Relying on export/import is all well and good and I can understand that being what the game wants to go for, but I'd be very happy if the most basic of basic resources weren't a complete slog to scrape together from the outset.

Though perhaps this gut reaction is, in fact, entirely making a mountain of a molehill. It certainly felt like I needed way more carpenters than previously, and still with less production output, same with stone miners and woodcutters. Feel free to tell me just how wrong I am in that estimation though, as I'd be happy to know.

I have at least learnt by now that importing tools and using those to boost the Laboratory is a very good way to increase your brain gainz, so maybe now I won't need quite as many nerds sitting around before I can reach what I precieve to be the fairly major milestone of unlocking the Library.

I might just be overvaluing tech progression, but to me it doesn't feel like I am making much progress unless I am unlocking more things. Getting more people is likely the best way to progress, but with tech I make my existing people hopefully more efficient.

Also I have to this day not understood how to get functional clothing industry going; the few times I tried to get my people ample clothes to wear it felt like they chewed through it super hard and I simply am not good enough to manage such huge resource and money drains yet. I have a similiar feeling towards 'luxury goods' for housing, especially when it is a global setting. I'd be happy if I could at least make a posh district where my most important people live, maybe even with the ability to "link" specific houses to specific workshops or the like so that those working in the mining pit will simply have to live in that cramped longhouse while the skilled craftsmen live in luxury apartments or the like.

And is it just me or is workspace incidents MUCH more common in this Beta?? It was the first time I saw incidents in places like the military training room, the bakery, and even carpenters, and seeing 9+ injuries felt quite bad when I was sitting at around 50-80 people.

Also is there something I need to consider regarding injured people? I found that even when I get a physician up, injured people kinda just... lay on the floor doing nothing. And no one seems to come by and help them.

I have no particularly strong opinions about Herbs being added to the game. A bit miffed that there is an extra bottleneck for making rations, but not a dealbreaker or anything, but maybe it could double as medicinal herbs and there could be an option for toggling on/off extra resource expenditure at places like the Physician or Eatery, that when it is turned on it uses some Herbs but it also increases customer satisfaction or the like? Not at the cost of baseline satisfaction, preferably, but as an optional extra for when you are truly fat on resources and can afford luxury like that. Or maybe its similiar in function to how Tools are used for buildings, just with a more rapidly consumed resource.

So far I am only sitting on 230 Humans in the colony, haven't yet managed to get a good export going, Will see if I can't get Carpentry improvement unlocked or something. Though I just might toss this colony out and go try Bugmanz again, as those are the ones I really WANT to try and do well with if anything.

And to Gamatron; apologies if this is a long ramble that barely make coherent points. Giving properly structured and easy to read feedback is not one of my strong points. And given how I have yet to even play past 500 population my view on things are likely very simplistic.

[Gamatron]

Originally posted by Burden of Brine:

Alright, I have tried the ea63 Beta a little bit now. Played as Humans in Temperate Climate. First impressions: Very nice to have more basic amenities like lavatory and speaker unlocked from the get go. And having military unlocked at 30 pop rather than having to wait all the way to 100 is great even if one might not have a lot of spare people to keep training at that point.

On a similiar note unlocking a bunch of lawkeeping buildings for free upon reaching 150 pop is also great, though I somewhat miss getting that first noble at 100 pop. It is not a huge loss or anything, but I miss it all the same, but having an interim title there just for that is likely not ideal either.

Having childrearing unlock at 350 pop is probably okay, as by that time you are likely set up enough to start having the resources to care for the lil anklebiters. Though if I were to make any change it'd likely be making Sheriff be at 100 pop and Mayor at 250 pop. Maybe with 1 Noble at Leader. But that is from the perspective of someone that have yet to even cross 500 people, and just want to get all the more basic gameplay elements unlocked fairly 'early' before the slog to the thousands and thousands of citizens begin.

I was a bit confused by the UI at first, particularly in trying to find the activate/deactivate option from a cursory glance. Personally I'd probably prefer the typical 'Power Button' icon rather than a lock, but that might clash a bit with the medieval aesthetic so it would be reasonable not to go through with that particular alternative.

Side tangent; I just learnt that I am terrible at planning for noise disturbance in my city planning, but after that I also learnt that building double-thick walls completely shuts in noise. Though the entrance still let out a lot of noise but that could be alleviated a little bit by doing some weird corridor nonsense. Probably better to just make actual plans for city building though.

As for what I was less impressed with regarding ea63 Beta branch... It feels as if all production buildings are much slower now? Stone Mine, Woodcutter, Clay Mine(which is now needed for something as simple as the Eatery??), not to mention the Carpenter! The Carpenter was churning out furniture super slow, so that became quite a big bottleneck early on.

The double-whammy of baseline production seemingly being tuned down, as well as needing BOTH research AND resource investment to increase it to what I assume was the old baseline, felt like a slap with a mildly chilly trout to the face. Relying on export/import is all well and good and I can understand that being what the game wants to go for, but I'd be very happy if the most basic of basic resources weren't a complete slog to scrape together from the outset.

Though perhaps this gut reaction is, in fact, entirely making a mountain of a molehill. It certainly felt like I needed way more carpenters than previously, and still with less production output, same with stone miners and woodcutters. Feel free to tell me just how wrong I am in that estimation though, as I'd be happy to know.

I have at least learnt by now that importing tools and using those to boost the Laboratory is a very good way to increase your brain gainz, so maybe now I won't need quite as many nerds sitting around before I can reach what I precieve to be the fairly major milestone of unlocking the Library.

I might just be overvaluing tech progression, but to me it doesn't feel like I am making much progress unless I am unlocking more things. Getting more people is likely the best way to progress, but with tech I make my existing people hopefully more efficient.

Also I have to this day not understood how to get functional clothing industry going; the few times I tried to get my people ample clothes to wear it felt like they chewed through it super hard and I simply am not good enough to manage such huge resource and money drains yet. I have a similiar feeling towards 'luxury goods' for housing, especially when it is a global setting. I'd be happy if I could at least make a posh district where my most important people live, maybe even with the ability to "link" specific houses to specific workshops or the like so that those working in the mining pit will simply have to live in that cramped longhouse while the skilled craftsmen live in luxury apartments or the like.

And is it just me or is workspace incidents MUCH more common in this Beta?? It was the first time I saw incidents in places like the military training room, the bakery, and even carpenters, and seeing 9+ injuries felt quite bad when I was sitting at around 50-80 people.

Also is there something I need to consider regarding injured people? I found that even when I get a physician up, injured people kinda just... lay on the floor doing nothing. And no one seems to come by and help them.

I have no particularly strong opinions about Herbs being added to the game. A bit miffed that there is an extra bottleneck for making rations, but not a dealbreaker or anything, but maybe it could double as medicinal herbs and there could be an option for toggling on/off extra resource expenditure at places like the Physician or Eatery, that when it is turned on it uses some Herbs but it also increases customer satisfaction or the like? Not at the cost of baseline satisfaction, preferably, but as an optional extra for when you are truly fat on resources and can afford luxury like that. Or maybe its similiar in function to how Tools are used for buildings, just with a more rapidly consumed resource.

So far I am only sitting on 230 Humans in the colony, haven't yet managed to get a good export going, Will see if I can't get Carpentry improvement unlocked or something. Though I just might toss this colony out and go try Bugmanz again, as those are the ones I really WANT to try and do well with if anything.

And to Gamatron; apologies if this is a long ramble that barely make coherent points. Giving properly structured and easy to read feedback is not one of my strong points. And given how I have yet to even play past 500 population my view on things are likely very simplistic.

Thank you very much. Yes, most industries has been taken aback significantly, since they now have upgrades instead of costing metal from the bat. So making a fully operation clay mine should be doable early on for instance. I do need to go through all industries though, there are a bunch of more ways to boost them this time, which can OP endgame and stall early game, so that needs to be sorted. Titles are also marked for a remake, making the flow better. Regarding nobles later, I must save some goodies for mid-late game. Must keep the game interesting and rewarding for a very long time compared to others, so it's a bit difficult.

The idea behind bugmen is that they should be playable as a sort of cannon fodder, quantity before quality, and you should not need to bother too much about research until you can get some human slaves to do it for you. I think you will notice that after 500 pop or so, you can build an army and go get yourself some territory, which gives you free resources each turn.

[Burden of Brine]

Originally posted by Gamatron:

Thank you very much. Yes, most industries has been taken aback significantly, since they now have upgrades instead of costing metal from the bat. So making a fully operation clay mine should be doable early on for instance. I do need to go through all industries though, there are a bunch of more ways to boost them this time, which can OP endgame and stall early game, so that needs to be sorted. Titles are also marked for a remake, making the flow better. Regarding nobles later, I must save some goodies for mid-late game. Must keep the game interesting and rewarding for a very long time compared to others, so it's a bit difficult.

Glad to be of help, in whatever small way it may be. And I do not envy you the headache of sorting through industry but I do agree with your assessment; can't be too strong late game, but also (and I think ABSOLUTELY) cannot stall out early game. Once a colony gets established enough to have a decent export of some kind a lot of options open up, but getting to that point shouldn't be a slong.

At least I have learnt that I can do custom orders, or else getting those 20 clays I needed for my bugmanz Eatery just now would have been a right pain to get as I don't think I will have anything of large enough quantity or value to export for quite some time and the clay mounds are basically on the opposite end of the map. Something as barebones as an Eatery really should not require such a location-specific resource, but certainly as an upgrade to improve its happiness contribution in my opinion.

A variety of Titles to slightly tailor towards playstyles would be great to have down the line, and hopefully serves as something to work towards from one colony to the next. Looking forward to seeing what those changes might be!

And fair enough regarding Nobles, though so far to me the real pearl of mid-game seems to be administration and warfare stuff... Or maybe thats late game? I do not know, given my limitted experience, but what I do know is that I love customization in being able to pick out what bonuses and whatnot I get. Research does a lot of that I suppose, but it is hard to put a face and a name on a pile of books, unlike what you can with Nobles. Seeing those expanded on in the future is also something to look forward to.

Again, I do not envy the hurdles you have to manage developing the game, but I hope it will prove satisfying and fun along the way.

Originally posted by Gamatron:

The idea behind bugmen is that they should be playable as a sort of cannon fodder, quantity before quality, and you should not need to bother too much about research until you can get some human slaves to do it for you. I think you will notice that after 500 pop or so, you can build an army and go get yourself some territory, which gives you free resources each turn.

Sounds about right from my brief stint with them the first few times around. My first post-tutorial phase colony was mostly bugmen with some humans acting as thinktank. A decent enough setup, but getting actual slaves instead of citizens with freedom and rights is probably a better endgoal to have.

One of these days I will reach 500 pop and maybe get a taste of more mid-game ventures.

Also I had a gander at the encyclopedia and tried to compare and contrast the different races a little. Gotta say it felt somewhat bad that the buggos had 0.11 learning capability or whatever it was. And Dondorians/Dwarves at 0.2, with the next worse being the Cretonians/Pigmen at 0.5... Bit weird numbers to me, but I suppose thats because it represents both booklearning and indoctrination. Dwarves being stubborn and able to resist indoctrination makes sense, but them being that slow to get educated looks kinda weird. But again, stubborn and stereotypically loathe new and fanciful things. But it did contrast with the Tilapi/Elves having a whopping 0.8 learning rate. Never thought of the cannibalistic treehuggers as willing to learn so eagerly.

Either way, back to playing the Beta branch some more, to see if anything else I might come across and feel compelled to opinionate on.

[HulaGremlin]

I havent played for a couple versions but in my experience the pigmen are hands down the best starter colony pop. for beginners. unless things have drastically changed, and I don't have enough time before work today to check, you can get a lot done with very little research and establish very good basic farms, food, and austere living and then what I typically did was a roughly 2 pigmen to 1 human immigration or 3:1 depending to start research and maintain production. I will have to play the latest beta when I get home from work tonight but the pigmen are very good at the bare basics of establishing a colony and their strengths are weighted, at least the last time I played, at essentially all the most basic necessary elements.

[Burden of Brine]

Alright I have now achieved what I wanted out of my most recent colony, that being some 1200~ bugs/Garthimi and 300~ Humans to unlock "The Leader" title, and also got "The Crafter" as a bonus. It also means I managed to break that ceiling I had been struggling with, so that is good. I think part reason why I managed that was... because I finally, thanks to a streamer(Isuress), learned how DECORATIONS work. I'm sure it had been sitting there all time and I am just blind. Live and learn!

I got a small taste of Administration and managing my country/region on the worldmap level, and did a fight with around 300~ enemies and I think I won out with my 240~ soldiers mostly because I had taken the time to set up a rudimentary wall around my settlement. So when they broke through it it was a small breach I surrounded to mulch them as they tried to get through.

I also learned some things about digging water canals and removing water to afford more water-creation, which allowed my fisheries to expand to quite immense sizes which suitably fed my growing population. And the fact that you get production boosts for specific workshops, IE Fisheries, at 25, 100, 500, etc workers did help greatly in keeping up demand. A bit odd that such a bonus exists alongside the tech uprades, but I am definitely a big fan to see such investment rewarded without having to spend tech on it.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917211619

And while production buildings does end up quite potent, such as Carpenter and Laboratories, I feel like having atrocious base production rate and huge +50% bonuses on upgrading to be less than ideal for the early game production buildings, IE Woodcutter, Mining pits, Carpenter, Bakery, etc. I'd say these should have a bit better base production, with smaller(and a bit cheaper?) upgrade options. While more luxury workshops, such as libraries and smithies, can start a bit weak but improve immensely with investments. Or just have more base production in general and okay-ish upgrades for when you need to scale up in the mid-late game at large population counts.

But thats just my gut feeling, and I wouldn't trust my gut, it is for digesting food after all. Not to give solid and qualified input on game balance/design!

Either way I think for my next colony I will not have human migrants, and rather go all in on actually trying out slavery to learn its ups and downs. After all there was a LOT of amenities and good housing I had to try and make to keep up with their demands! They get food and lodging, and amenities, handed to and built for them, and all I want them to do is philosophize over how to fish real good. No more handouts in the future!
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917213046
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917213323

All in all this colony did well enough, but I shall leave it here and start over elsewhere. Likely as the Garthimi again, but not entirely sure. Perhaps I should try different things... But it is the bugmanz I want to like the most, so I will probably play them the most overall.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917213872

However, I did sit down and more thoroughly compare racial stats a bit, and I gotta say I wasn't expecting to see the bugs have a mere 0.11Learning rate! I understand them having the worst of all of them, but do Garthimi larva even reach full(60%) learning or indoctrination during their short maturation with that kind of rate? I suppose the next colony will have to last long enough to find that out, as they certainly aren't worth putting into universities.

Also the morale at 0.5 feels somewhat sketchy, but I have yet to suffer from it I will admit. I don't really feel like I managed to do much swarming, as the bugs eat at the same rate as everyone else, the migrants come at the same rate too, though I didn't set up as big or as many hatcheries as perhaps I probably should have in order to truly feel swarm-like in my numbers. Especially not when my first big battle had some 300~ people against my army of 240~ or so. Perhaps I could have afforded more soldiers, but the more soldiers I have the less fishers or industry I have. Maybe need to grow even bigger before I can manage the right feel for Garthimi, but so far I have yet to feel it even after passing the 1000~ pop milestone.

After all I need a lot of people working on food industry, and I need to also produce something that acts as export so I can afford to import all the various materials I need in order to expand and improve things. Admittedly my hyperfocus on playing almost entirely as Garthimi might limit my experience a great deal in the end... Perhaps I should try playing as another race next instead, see how they fare in comparison. Likely Humans, at least those can brain good without outside help, and brainpower is sorely needed to advance at decent rates I feel.

But at this point I think this thread has served its course, and in the future I might just make new ones for more specific topics instead.

Originally posted by HulaGremlin:

I havent played for a couple versions but in my experience the pigmen are hands down the best starter colony pop. for beginners. unless things have drastically changed, and I don't have enough time before work today to check, you can get a lot done with very little research and establish very good basic farms, food, and austere living and then what I typically did was a roughly 2 pigmen to 1 human immigration or 3:1 depending to start research and maintain production. I will have to play the latest beta when I get home from work tonight but the pigmen are very good at the bare basics of establishing a colony and their strengths are weighted, at least the last time I played, at essentially all the most basic necessary elements.

While I haven't made a pigman/Cretonian colony yet, as their style and vibe doesn't mesh with my tastes, I do get the impression that they are quite easy to pick up and learn, as their stats are overall quite solid(unlike bugmen!), but if there was one thing that would make it a bit rough to play as the pigmen first it would be for a few key aspects;

They want weirdly shaped buildings and lots of harmony around them. Personally I find the Dondorians(Dwarves) and Garthimi(Bugpeople) easy to play simply because the first want square buildings, and neither care so much about spaciousness. Being able to build really cramped and tight makes things easy on the logistics I feel... But I have yet to delve into using the transport. Maybe I should one of these days.

Anyhow, ramblings over for now, time to get a new colony started! Humans, Dwarves, or Bugs... That is the question I suppose. Probably bugs.

[Gamatron]

Originally posted by Burden of Brine:

Alright I have now achieved what I wanted out of my most recent colony, that being some 1200~ bugs/Garthimi and 300~ Humans to unlock "The Leader" title, and also got "The Crafter" as a bonus. It also means I managed to break that ceiling I had been struggling with, so that is good. I think part reason why I managed that was... because I finally, thanks to a streamer(Isuress), learned how DECORATIONS work. I'm sure it had been sitting there all time and I am just blind. Live and learn!

I got a small taste of Administration and managing my country/region on the worldmap level, and did a fight with around 300~ enemies and I think I won out with my 240~ soldiers mostly because I had taken the time to set up a rudimentary wall around my settlement. So when they broke through it it was a small breach I surrounded to mulch them as they tried to get through.

I also learned some things about digging water canals and removing water to afford more water-creation, which allowed my fisheries to expand to quite immense sizes which suitably fed my growing population. And the fact that you get production boosts for specific workshops, IE Fisheries, at 25, 100, 500, etc workers did help greatly in keeping up demand. A bit odd that such a bonus exists alongside the tech uprades, but I am definitely a big fan to see such investment rewarded without having to spend tech on it.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917211619

And while production buildings does end up quite potent, such as Carpenter and Laboratories, I feel like having atrocious base production rate and huge +50% bonuses on upgrading to be less than ideal for the early game production buildings, IE Woodcutter, Mining pits, Carpenter, Bakery, etc. I'd say these should have a bit better base production, with smaller(and a bit cheaper?) upgrade options. While more luxury workshops, such as libraries and smithies, can start a bit weak but improve immensely with investments. Or just have more base production in general and okay-ish upgrades for when you need to scale up in the mid-late game at large population counts.

But thats just my gut feeling, and I wouldn't trust my gut, it is for digesting food after all. Not to give solid and qualified input on game balance/design!

Either way I think for my next colony I will not have human migrants, and rather go all in on actually trying out slavery to learn its ups and downs. After all there was a LOT of amenities and good housing I had to try and make to keep up with their demands! They get food and lodging, and amenities, handed to and built for them, and all I want them to do is philosophize over how to fish real good. No more handouts in the future!
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917213046
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917213323

All in all this colony did well enough, but I shall leave it here and start over elsewhere. Likely as the Garthimi again, but not entirely sure. Perhaps I should try different things... But it is the bugmanz I want to like the most, so I will probably play them the most overall.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2917213872

However, I did sit down and more thoroughly compare racial stats a bit, and I gotta say I wasn't expecting to see the bugs have a mere 0.11Learning rate! I understand them having the worst of all of them, but do Garthimi larva even reach full(60%) learning or indoctrination during their short maturation with that kind of rate? I suppose the next colony will have to last long enough to find that out, as they certainly aren't worth putting into universities.

Also the morale at 0.5 feels somewhat sketchy, but I have yet to suffer from it I will admit. I don't really feel like I managed to do much swarming, as the bugs eat at the same rate as everyone else, the migrants come at the same rate too, though I didn't set up as big or as many hatcheries as perhaps I probably should have in order to truly feel swarm-like in my numbers. Especially not when my first big battle had some 300~ people against my army of 240~ or so. Perhaps I could have afforded more soldiers, but the more soldiers I have the less fishers or industry I have. Maybe need to grow even bigger before I can manage the right feel for Garthimi, but so far I have yet to feel it even after passing the 1000~ pop milestone.

After all I need a lot of people working on food industry, and I need to also produce something that acts as export so I can afford to import all the various materials I need in order to expand and improve things. Admittedly my hyperfocus on playing almost entirely as Garthimi might limit my experience a great deal in the end... Perhaps I should try playing as another race next instead, see how they fare in comparison. Likely Humans, at least those can brain good without outside help, and brainpower is sorely needed to advance at decent rates I feel.

But at this point I think this thread has served its course, and in the future I might just make new ones for more specific topics instead. :summerghost:

Originally posted by HulaGremlin:

I havent played for a couple versions but in my experience the pigmen are hands down the best starter colony pop. for beginners. unless things have drastically changed, and I don't have enough time before work today to check, you can get a lot done with very little research and establish very good basic farms, food, and austere living and then what I typically did was a roughly 2 pigmen to 1 human immigration or 3:1 depending to start research and maintain production. I will have to play the latest beta when I get home from work tonight but the pigmen are very good at the bare basics of establishing a colony and their strengths are weighted, at least the last time I played, at essentially all the most basic necessary elements.

While I haven't made a pigman/Cretonian colony yet, as their style and vibe doesn't mesh with my tastes, I do get the impression that they are quite easy to pick up and learn, as their stats are overall quite solid(unlike bugmen!), but if there was one thing that would make it a bit rough to play as the pigmen first it would be for a few key aspects;

They want weirdly shaped buildings and lots of harmony around them. Personally I find the Dondorians(Dwarves) and Garthimi(Bugpeople) easy to play simply because the first want square buildings, and neither care so much about spaciousness. Being able to build really cramped and tight makes things easy on the logistics I feel... But I have yet to delve into using the transport. Maybe I should one of these days.

Anyhow, ramblings over for now, time to get a new colony started! Humans, Dwarves, or Bugs... That is the question I suppose. Probably bugs.

That's an excellent idea about the mines and the refining, and aligns with what I've planned. My thoughts are that low tier resources should be quite prominent out of the box, with some cheap and early upgrades in the form of techs, while the latter ones are crap at lowest level, and expensive to setup. Add to that a sort of renaissance to the low tier resources that will allow you to sustain your economy on low tier resources later, if you want to.

[binxmuldoon123]

My first out of the tutorial city was dondorian. I turned raids down to the minimum so it has been pretty easy growing to 2k population. The housing furnishing bug that got fixed was a big help. At one point I refunded the gem mine because I didn't intend to build another or expand it anytime soon. In a pinch you might be able to do without some technologies, which can net you other tech that can get you better labs. I have 1200 soldiers, they go back to working other jobs after meeting your training quota. Pure dondorian since they don't mind immigrants. All dedicated melee troops. Well not pure, I have like 30 of the giant guys now.

[Burden of Brine]

Originally posted by binxmuldoon123:

My first out of the tutorial city was dondorian. I turned raids down to the minimum so it has been pretty easy growing to 2k population. The housing furnishing bug that got fixed was a big help. At one point I refunded the gem mine because I didn't intend to build another or expand it anytime soon. In a pinch you might be able to do without some technologies, which can net you other tech that can get you better labs. I have 1200 soldiers, they go back to working other jobs after meeting your training quota. Pure dondorian since they don't mind immigrants. All dedicated melee troops. Well not pure, I have like 30 of the giant guys now.

I think I might end up doing the reverse of that, and make raids more likely... Or I would have, before I figured out how easy it was to get slaves by just heading out and punching a small neighbor anyhow. Might still shift things so I get raided more often though, keeps things spicy.

And yeah I think that is my biggest mistake with the Garthimi/Boogz so far; I keep making elite squads set to be forever training, and completely disregard militia that can be dragged in just to add numbers. That is definitely something I will have to keep in mind to change for my future runs, be it Garthimi or otherwise.