Suggestion: Mindless communist drones < Individuals with demands and property

[Dampfnudel]

I am disapointed that the game designed the economy about Mindless communist drones.
I would prefer that the pops being Individuals with demands, rights and property.

Suggestion:

The player gives a family a house and a farm. The family sells the production for money,
Then it spends the money to fullfil its demands. In return for the house&farm the family pays taxes to the player.

The player spends the tax money so the people do/give things for the player.

[Gamatron]

It might be the case with nobles further along.

[Prisoner 76561197992841073]

sounds a bit micromanagey if you're running a giant city, i for one do not want to have to give 30000 guys each individually a house

[Dampfnudel]

Originally posted by Judestorm:

sounds a bit micromanagey if you're running a giant city, i for one do not want to have to give 30000 guys each individually a house

It should be designed not require micromanagement obviosuly.

[georgeAM]

Originally posted by Judestorm:

sounds a bit micromanagey if you're running a giant city, i for one do not want to have to give 30000 guys each individually a house

what the difference between giving zones to your citizen and building yourself 30000 houses for each one manually?

yeah i also tired of city building games where basic its all a ''communist'' society with mindless drones that are too dumb to use clothes themselves.
i still waiting for a game where i can choose if i want to do everyting myself or givi to the population the tools and they build themselves

[Prisoner 76561197992841073]

Originally posted by georgeAM:

Originally posted by Judestorm:

sounds a bit micromanagey if you're running a giant city, i for one do not want to have to give 30000 guys each individually a house

what the difference between giving zones to your citizen and building yourself 30000 houses for each one manually?

yeah i also tired of city building games where basic its all a ''communist'' society with mindless drones that are too dumb to use clothes themselves.
i still waiting for a game where i can choose if i want to do everyting myself or givi to the population the tools and they build themselves

zones would be cool like simcity, i'd definitely prefer it to the current situation

[Prisoner 76561197992841073]

Originally posted by Dampfnudel:

Originally posted by Judestorm:

sounds a bit micromanagey if you're running a giant city, i for one do not want to have to give 30000 guys each individually a house

It should be designed not require micromanagement obviosuly.

i do kinda agree with your original premise, it'd be nice if citizens earned money through jobs and spent money on clothes, food, etc themselves instead of us having to assign it to them... these could all be options for the type of civilization you want to build as well - perhaps you want a free market society or an authoritarian communist society

[DaLagga]

What you're proposing would require a very complex and demanding economic simulation. It could maybe work in a smaller game where populations number in the dozens or low hundreds perhaps. But can you imagine the AI calculations to have this simulation run with like 20k inhabitants? Not even a NASA super computer could run that.

In short, I'm no developer, but I don't think that what you're proposing is feasible in a game with huge numbers of AI. Things have to be kept fairly simple for performance reasons and to minimize bugs as well as prevent issues where things just break down completely and grind the economy to a halt for no good reason.

For example, about a year ago I played a newer space sim called Helium Rain which had a hyper realistic economy where pretty much everything was simulated. Miners for example would mine asteroids and sell the ore to refineries which would spend their actual savings to buy the ore, process it and sell it to manufacturers which themselves would use their own finances to buy, transport and sell it and so on. Sounds cool on paper, but what ended up happening in my game is that within a few days of playing the economy just stopped. Everyone ran out of money, nobody could buy anything and the entire simulation basically just froze - leaving me, the player, completely screwed.

So while fully simulated economies sound nice, there's just too many things that can go wrong which is why almost every game that I can think of just fakes most of the economic stuff.

[Dampfnudel]

Originally posted by DaLagga:

What you're proposing would require a very complex and demanding economic simulation. It could maybe work in a smaller game where populations number in the dozens or low hundreds perhaps. But can you imagine the AI calculations to have this simulation run with like 20k inhabitants? Not even a NASA super computer could run that.

In short, I'm no developer, but I don't think that what you're proposing is feasible in a game with huge numbers of AI. Things have to be kept fairly simple for performance reasons and to minimize bugs as well as prevent issues where things just break down completely and grind the economy to a halt for no good reason.

For example, about a year ago I played a newer space sim called Helium Rain which had a hyper realistic economy where pretty much everything was simulated. Miners for example would mine asteroids and sell the ore to refineries which would spend their actual savings to buy the ore, process it and sell it to manufactures which themselves would use their own finances to buy, transport and sell it and so on. Sounds cool on paper, but what ended up happening in my game is that within a few days of playing the economy just stopped. Everyone ran out of money, nobody could buy anything and the entire simulation basically just froze - leaving me, the player, completely screwed.

So while fully simulated economies sound nice, there's just too many things that can go wrong which is why almost every game that I can think of just fakes most of the economic stuff.

This game is currently about haveing like 200 people as subjects.

Can you imagine the currrent game with 20k inhabitants? Probably unplayable.

The issue with that game helium rain sounds more like a bad designed simulation and not like CPU issue.

[Guurt]

Originally posted by Dampfnudel:

This game is currently about haveing like 200 people as subjects.

Can you imagine the currrent game with 20k inhabitants? Probably unplayable.

The issue with that game helium rain sounds more like a bad designed simulation and not like CPU issue.

No. You can have over 200 subjects within 1 hour of starting a new game. Having thousands and thousands of citizens is what this game is about, and unless you deliberately try to go slow you will have thousands of citizens in no time at all.

I have military training buildings that serve 200 soldiers each. Taverns that seat 400+ people. My tailor shop has 46 workers.

The scale of this game is very, very different than most other games.

Things really ramp up when I have 500 workers doing odd jobs. At this point I start building massive buildings and projects in very little time.

[Dampfnudel]

Originally posted by Guurt:

Originally posted by Dampfnudel:

This game is currently about haveing like 200 people as subjects.

Can you imagine the currrent game with 20k inhabitants? Probably unplayable.

The issue with that game helium rain sounds more like a bad designed simulation and not like CPU issue.

No. You can have over 200 subjects within 1 hour of starting a new game. Having thousands and thousands of citizens is what this game is about, and unless you deliberately try to go slow you will have thousands of citizens in no time at all.

I have military training buildings that serve 200 soldiers each. Taverns that seat 400+ people. My tailor shop has 46 workers.

The scale of this game is very, very different than most other games.

Things really ramp up when I have 500 workers doing odd jobs. At this point I start building massive buildings and projects in very little time.

Then I guess CPU efficency is core goal of the programming. But it still sucks if it was 200k drones instead of 200k people.

[MindCrusader]

You describe that as "easy thing to do": "LOLS OPTIMISE THE GAME AND DO IT". No, it doesn't work this way, huge amount of units is always the problem and due to this game being simulator of megacity, it will not be done on huge scale. Maybe nobility will have such feature due to possibly lower number of populations to control. Beside that I think this game is fine as it is, I don't see managing individual demands with few k population. It will be already challenging to maintain demands when additional things will be added (such as religion and races that have other demands).

If you want to have more or less what you described, play Foundation which has some of these features.

[Dampfnudel]

Ymir does handling the demand with huge populations very well. It has an efficent way to program the economy. (Though the game has other issues)

[Dampfnudel]

I just just there was for once a a game where you could have an actual living city.

Now this game is just a copy of all these other base building games.

[Guurt]

Originally posted by Dampfnudel:

Ymir does handling the demand with huge populations very well. It has an efficent way to program the economy. (Though the game has other issues)

Ymir is a great game, but a terrible comparison for Songs of Syx. Ymir's people aren't actually shown on the map doing anything. There is no path finding, no AI for the people at all. All the people you see on the map are just mindlessly moving around with no relationship to anything about your city design. There is no real relationship between the people you see on the map and the statistics about your people.

The ONLY time YMIR has actual people on the map is during battles, and during battles there are massive problems with lag.

I love YMIR but the city building part is very conceptual as it makes absolutely no difference where anything is in your city as the people on the map aren't your actual people and they aren't actually doing anything at all. They are just flavor graphics so you have something nice to look at.

Songs of Syx's people actually do stuff and are each unique characters that live and die. They actually have to move around on the map and fulfill their needs.

This is a crazy example as these two games handle populations quite differently.

[Dampfnudel]

Originally posted by Guurt:

Originally posted by Dampfnudel:

Ymir does handling the demand with huge populations very well. It has an efficent way to program the economy. (Though the game has other issues)

Ymir is a great game, but a terrible comparison for Songs of Syx. Ymir's people aren't actually shown on the map doing anything. There is no path finding, no AI for the people at all. All the people you see on the map are just mindlessly moving around with no relationship to anything about your city design. There is no real relationship between the people you see on the map and the statistics about your people.

The ONLY time YMIR has actual people on the map is during battles, and during battles there are massive problems with lag.

I love YMIR but the city building part is very conceptual as it makes absolutely no difference where anything is in your city as the people on the map aren't your actual people and they aren't actually doing anything at all. They are just flavor graphics so you have something nice to look at.

Songs of Syx's people actually do stuff and are each unique characters that live and die. They actually have to move around on the map and fulfill their needs.

This is a crazy example as these two games handle populations quite differently.

In Song of syx your people are drones. Just as in any other base builder game/rts. That is what I dislike.