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I knew their clothes/stances felt familiar but I couldn't quite place it, good eye. I think they may be red herrings though due to the fact that 1. Those characters could be avatars, meaning those likenesses (with the three kings at least) may be meaningless. 2. There weren't any instances of George and Hideyoshi making it off the island, so them being alive seems very unlikely. Another thing to keep in mind with the temporal door is the time mentioned, specifically how it transports you "1000" years into the future. In Umineko this number was used for the ages of multiple witches. 1000 years was (from my understanding) meant to be a metaphor for what "felt" like 1000 years rather than a literal time period. So I think that number being reused in that way could imply something in the same vein.
To actually address one of the questions in the OP, I assumed that Toujirou was the hacker in the drone incident. He was able to get into Miyao's gauntlet easily enough, and his character profile says he has access to other systems as well. Plus he knew where he would be safe while in Brazil during the incident there. But it could have been another person working for the Three Kings.
@Bismuth, that's a good find on the dates for two of the Wisdoms we see! For March 5 1994, that was the day of the Salt Lake City Public Library hostage incident, though I'm not sure how or if that's related to the totem drops. (The hostage-taker had a homemade bomb, which turned out to be real.)
About Spiritium: isn't it strange how only humans can use it? I'm thinking that Spiritium is made out of WW3-era humans, which would explain the human slaughterhouses/ factories in Miyao's flashbacks. I can't tell, however, if it was the flesh part that was used or the mind part. If it's the flesh, the whole "living in VR is better" is only an excuse to convince people to volunteer to have their brains and spinal cords severed from their body, which is then turned to fuel without them knowing. If it's the mind part and Spiritium is some kind of abstract collective human consciousness, it might explain why Gauntlet Knights can use it (they're very good at parallel processing, plus some of their extra personalities might be consciousness of previous people who "awoke" inside them). This might also relate to the idea expressed earlier in the thread that humanity is one of the players in the game; all of those individual minds might have come together to create a single entity enabling it to play, with (maybe) the Gauntlet Knights acting as its proxy.
Japan pre-WW3, being quite technologically advanced in VR, might have had one of those human factories (probably in Kyoto). The Sea of Glass was put there to seal the factory (hence why they found Spiritium underneath). I'm curious if anybody in the military unrelated to the Three Kings and their minions know the truth about WW3 and if they do, do they just not care?
About Seshat: Seshat is the name of an Ancient Egyptian goddess, patron of many arts and sciences, including writing and time-keeping. As a time recorder, she is often depicted writing down the time each king is allotted on Earth. This makes for a pretty sweet connection between Seshat the WTC character and the Three Kings. Is she the one deciding how much time the Kings can rule? Is she the goddess herself or just someone whose avatar is inspired by it? So far, she's the most powerful character shown on screen. I got chills from her conversation with Tojirou, when she says she wouldn't want to punish him if he turned out to be a traitor. It seemed like an odd piece of foreshadowing, since Seshat was pretty suspicious of Tojirou's ex-wife (most probably Vier), whom he seems to be in contact with (that might lead to betrayal).
Another thing: Gunhild's sister, Maya (I hope I remembered her name correctly). In the tips, it's hinted she was killed inside the Pandora project. In the main story, it's hinted during the party Tojirou attended that she became a second secretary. Which is the truth?
Unrelated: are there other hubs discussing Ciconia? Umineko had the AnimeSuki forums, so far there seems to be nothing of this scale for WTC5.
The part about Lingji's flag would feel more like a clue if it weren't for how shoddy the profiles as a whole are. The mini portraits have inconsistent backgrounds and part of Aysha's head is missing. Lingji still probably has some connection to the Translators, which makes her a pretty unlikely candidate to be the 9th prime plant at least. Maybe each faction has some moles in the gauntlet knight forces, and not just the kings.
On the note of Gauntlets, the story parallels the book of Revelations in a lot of ways, and the LATO girls have trumpet-themed gauntlets. In revelations, trumpets herald apocalyptic events. Not sure if this means anything.
@Sii_Kei
I didn't put that much weight into what happened to Maya. I interpreted it as she went through hell becoming a second secretary before being killed in the pandora experimentation after finally being offered an opportunity to become a gauntlet knight. If Gunhild knew about that, it would further her justification for hating the world.
I feel pretty silly for not suspecting anything about spiritium though. I just wrote it off as a sci-fi god particle, but given Vier's involvement in it, and even the name, there's got to be something going on there.
I agree with everything about Seshat, Toujirou, and Vier. Seshat and Vier seem like the major players, maybe the kings too, and Toujirou is trying to keep tabs on all of them.
I think you might be overthinking some of these a bit. Just showing hints of a darker side I don't think is enough to make a leap to assuming CPP, many people have a darker side to their personality that they don't show other people. I'd even say that probably most people in the world who haven't lived lives without hardship do. For some people it doesn't even mean anything, its just depressive thoughts we have when we're feeling a bit down: and this story gives people tons of reasons to feel a bit down.
Unrelated to the post I quoted, I also think in Chloe's case that we shouldn't assume CPP specifically. Early on in the story its mentioned that there's a difference between acquired multiple personality disorder from trauma, and inherited multiple personality disorder: CPP in the game's terms. One of the differences that stands out to me there is that its mentioned that often people with Acquired MPD aren't aware of the actions their other personalities take, and in the data fragments Chloe is shown to not remember what she was doing moments ago as 'Chloevil'. Pair that with a backstory that easily could have traumatized her, and I think she might not be CPP despite most likely having multiple personalities.
I had this same exact thought especially from the ending. Meow was the one to suggest the christmas party and everyone knew it was either the 25th or the New Years was going to be the annoucement of the peace treaty. Meow even told Jayden to not tell Miyao it was her idea which was when all that violence went down its like she knew. Plus she was no where to be seen after that event.
- The spies are: Chloe, Aysha, Naima, Rethabile and Meow. I'm disappointed by the lack of a guy in there but Ryûkishi seems to be shouting this is the list.
- I doubt the Underground Lab truly exists. However, it is certainly a big part of the plot even if it's a 100% metaphorical. And even if it does exist, part of it is already metaphorical. I can explain most of the elements which give the illusion it does exist, though not everything yet.
- Gunhild is a "spy" too, but not one of those sent by Tojiro, it's the only one directly placed by a King (King of Ridicule). This spy is looking for "their research center". I believe this explains Data Fragment #15, right? And this is one of the element which can cast doubt over the UL as said above.
- Of course Koshka/Pandora's box affair is linked to the Hinamizawa Syndrome and probably to more than this since Ciconia finally gives us the "global frame" for the whole series. So Pandora's Box is probably the "global frame" to explain the syndrome. And we're told explicitely the Syndrome is back as part of the full disaster menu.
- Miyao and Statue-Miyao as I call him (Evil-souding Miyao if you prefer) are eerily reminiscent of Battler and Beatrice, aren't they?Well, about Miyao, the parallels with Battler (and even "Battler") are so numerous that I see him as the "global frame" for the "concept" that is Battler in the series too.
- Time capsule: I won't be surprised if by using it you actually end up on Rokkenjima (time unknown though). Of course, I also think that it is quite probable Ciconia actually takes place before Higurashi and Umineko. It might also be that the whole series itself is in an eternal loop.
- Do not limit yourself to thinking about dates for wisdom numbers. Even if some match interesting dates, probably purposefully, I believe there is clearly a greater pattern behind it all. And it seems quite complex and obscure... After all, Rethabile's Squad is Squad 601 and NOT 0601, yet its full name is "something 1st June". Yet if you interpret these numbers as dates, then it shall be Squad 0601 for 1st June. Moreover, do not leave 07151129 out of the list when trying to theorize about this element! ;)
Well, I have more in store but that should be enough!
MOLES - For now, I don't really know who's whom mole. Though I'd say everyone is AOU is likely to be someone's mole except the finnish cat girl and koshka. (Miyao himself has probably been unkowingly leaking intel to two or three parties all along).
WW3 - I think the WW3 mystery is pretty central to what's actually going on. It's both impossible and absurd to cover up the reasons why it happened. That scene right before the public bath oath was super fishy. I'm talking about when everyone agrees it's better not to know the past in the name of global harmony (what a ridiculous argument). That weird consensus reminded me a lot of Umineko very first tea party (when everyone but Battler suddenly decides the murders were done by a witch). It's like all the pieces of this world were hardcoded to not even try to know about WW3. Which is why I agree with what Rena Ryuguu said earlier in this topic: they're most likely all in a virtual reality.
GAMEBOARD - The goal of the game is probably to see how long they can keep an iteration of the virtual reality going. If the mad scientists groups can keep doing their research, eventually they'll discover the same technology that enabled the virtual reality in the first place, and they'll try to crack it from the inside (Vier's group seems pretty close to that point, since they've already discovered how to transfer their counciousness, which probably wouldn't be a smoth irl, since they still need brains and spinal cords, but is easy inside the VR since everyone's already a program/copy based on the irl brains). Cracking the game from the inside probably triggers a hard-reset of the VR, with everyone having an unpleasant wake-up irl.
'GODS' - So after the first reset, the irl bots (I bet it's AI, not humans, who are managing the real world) in charge of maintaining the virtual reality, probably added the three kings institution as a failsafe to prevent mankind from ever reaching that level of technology. The three kings seems a bit like a joke, and probably are clueless about being pieces. Still they're important enough for Blue Miyao to want them dead. So they're probably the major pieces in the 'maintain the VR' side. While Vier, Toujirou and mad scientist in general want to see what's on the other side.
METAWORLD - Well it's just a flawed theory. I haven't decided how births and deaths would fit in that theory (most of mankind would have to be simulated as NPCs, since there is probably no way to maintain 10 billion+ brains irl for each individual newborn. But if they can simulate realistic NPCs, there is no reason to assume the brains are connected as a multiplayer reality, instead of several singleplayer VR with one MC and a lot of NPCs). But still that will be my main bet: I"m betting that's what the nature of the metaworld will be this time. Higurashi hadtime loops, Umineko had recursive stories , for Ciconia it will be virtual realities.
3 KINGS - On a side note, like someone else said, I also felt the 3 kings sprite had a similar style to several Umineko characters. Fury's shape in particular is very reminiscent of Hideyoshi's. My wild guess is that their faces will end up being those of Hideyoshi, Rudolf (Ridicule) and Krauss (Sorrow). It won't mean anything though, as it won't be connected to past WTC stories. As for their roles in the stories, I really have a feeling those 3 poor guys won't end up being that important. They're already pretty clueless about a lot of things, and I'm pretty sure they'll be backstabbed by their allies eventually (Toujirou is a confirmed traitor already, Seshat is most likely one too, Jestress has her own agenda).
TIMECAPSULE - The 1000 years thing is probably a way of speaking, like in Umineko, and would refer to VR stuff: programs from past iterations kept in reserve. Probably where blue GK come from.
SESHAT - Idk what to make of Seshat. She probably founded the poyo startup, but idk what her objectives are. Her order is supposed to be closely aligned on the 3 kings, but the fact that she has access to the 1000y stuff, and that Toujirou doesn't report his meeting with Seshat to Jestress makes it clear she's not allied with them. She might even be on the mad scientist side. It would give meaning to the name of her order 'prometheus' (a guy who litteraly steals tech from the gods to give it to the humans). But then, why kill gray, who was about to rat out the 3 kings?
Well that's it for now. I'm pretty sure 95% of my guesses will end up wrong. Let's send this message a few years in the future, so I can brag on the offchance I foresaw something.
Think about it, they both look exactly like Takano/Lambda.
But what made it obvious to me is her relationship with Tojiro, who is just Ciconia's version of Tomitake. I feel like she could be Miyao's mother. Takano and Tojiro had feelings for each other in Higurashi, so that would make sense.
She's probably using an avatar, I don't know which one of the two is the avatar, but I remember Tojiro commentating about her appearance. I forgot what exactly he said.
- Remember in the last chapter how, when Sunyä Sky starts playing, all of a sudden random scenes seem to pop up? Though it is made confusing because in the middle of all of this we see Gunhild's death and Chloe acting weird with Lilja in what seems to be the continuation of the previous battle, you realize afterwards that it's all excerpts from the Data Fragments (and so, because Gunhild's 'death' is included in DF n°15, we can't infer it truly was linked to the final battle in my opinion). Well, it's all excerpts apart from the last bit being the prophecy made by Lunar-Miyao in Chap. 3, and the bit before that does remain mysterious though it reminds of the DF with Grave Mole training, but the dialogue isn't pulled out from there. However, about this particular bit, I believe it is highly probable it is part of a DF, just one we haven't seen yet (maybe in a future Phase?).
Indeed, now that I've reminded you a bit of the context, here truly comes what I've found. It's actually so simple and yet matches so perfectly that it's shocking. You really need to do just one thing: count how many of this excerpts are suddenly thrown in. Then keep on reading 'till the end of the chapter with this info in mind, also knowing about the Data Fragments will help (hence once I got it immediately on reread). Notice anything? Answer below if you truly want to know though again it's great to figure it out yourself:
https://hebergeur-images.com/up/4e693f267041d9d421cf52b7f4145012.png
Those random excerpts were actually Toujirou entering his code! This perfectly makes sense of why they were put in there – otherwise I would still have no idea. Also, you know, why the hell should we know that his code is 5-‘digit’ long if it did not matter? And of course, the main argument, along with the numbers matching, is that just look at it – this kind of mid-air tablet they use look like Data Fragments! This is actually something I noticed quite soon after having finished the DF and so having this in mind helped me pierce this together really immediately when rereading the final chapter.
Also, about the last excerpt again, it is not a DF but Lunar-Miyao in chap 3, however there is still a heavy link with DF: apart from chapter 24 where he was 'summoned', every time Lunar-Miyao appears, the background behind him is that of the well-known puprle spiral... plus many green 'squares' floating about, just like DF again!
So that was the main body of this theory – now the second part would be ‘what are the implications?’, ‘what exactly is the link between codes and DF?’, etc. I’ve been thinking about this and I have quite a lot of ideas again, but that would be for another post honestly!
- Second theory, still about the last chapter. It is about the final fight between Lingji and Miyao and there are several subpoints:
- First of all, this final scene be completely ‘isolated’ from what happened before. This means it might be chronologically detached from the Christmas battle scene (though the hole in the sky on Chrismtas is just too perfect so I’m not fond of this) – or else, it is not on the same ‘plane’ as the previous scene, meaning what was before might have been ‘fiction’ (there are several ways for this ‘fiction’ to still have felt real of course, with VR and simulations theories and so on.)
- Why do I think that? Mainly for two reasons: the discussion Miyao and Lingji have seems not to follow what was before, actually if you aren’t tired when you reach this point you should realize you have no clue what they are talking about at first. Second, Lingji’s Gauntlet. GK shouldn’t be able to change Gauntlets just like that, even worse they should have only one Gauntlet. So this sudden change implies that the usual Gauntlet we thought Lingji had was probably ‘false’. You could put this on the fact that Miyao and Lingji had never met physically up until this point – so it could have been an avatar trick – however if I recall correctly there was an AOU/COU battle at some point (Amur river? I’m not completely sure) where supposedly Warcats and Baibao might have fought against each other – though it was not shown (ellipse). I might be wrong on that detail though. But even without that, we should have already seen Lingji ‘physically’ when for instance Baibao squad is attacking the mine machines. So, if this was no ‘lie’, might have it simply been ‘fiction’, which is ‘real’ on the 'plane' of the fiction itself?
- Here comes the main part: I believe maybe a huge, huge part of the Phase might have been this ‘fiction’, and it was Lingji’s. This explains why Miyao is suddenly speaking insistently of this ‘message’ that Lingji has ‘already gotten across’… it probably is this whole message of becoming immaterial by freeing yourself from your body that becomes more and more prominent as the story goes on – as well as the whole world reset idea. And this would tie nicely with Buddhism, we can easily imagine Lingji might be into it. I still don’t know what to make of the fact that Lingji’s says Miyao is not his true enemy – but anyway, as a consequence of all of that, this Lingji might be part of the 9th Prime Chivalric Order if she’s been trying to convince Miyao with her message when we know the 9th Prime would like Miyao to join them.
Well, this theory is a bit more confuse and I need to keep on developing it. Clearly, in those last scenes, absolutely every screen, every line is important. This Phase is indeed truly hard.
- Last one for now. I will try to make it short in order to not post too long, so if you feel I should develop it more ask me about it. I put spoilers again because there are Umineko spoilers here. So here’s schema to sum it up and below are further details: https://hebergeur-images.com/up/e5b73a4bd602a0f4dd2565ea442ae082.png
- About ‘The rondo of illusion’, I encourage you to read about this (also helps for Umineko): http://zero-point.tripod.com/holistic/sphere9.html I am referring to this specific bit: "There is Maya, the woman spinning illusion with her dancing. Weeping in her irony for all poor drowning souls." (All of this also makes me think we will see Maya/Maja in Phase 2 maybe quite fast actually, since we have reached the Lunar Plane at the end of this Phase 1.)
- About I. (Gunhild/Vier), another argument might be that Gunhild’s colored-text is golden text whereas her hair is green. She’s not the only exception to this rule but she’s one where the new color used seems quite separated from her sprite. But could it be because this is Vier’s hair color?
- Erika is in the middle because she’s not part of the identity, she’s just the link from Umineko which first helped me put this theory together.
- I say this is ‘Three Person’ identity because there is this mysterious ‘Three Person’ spoken of at one point who is apparently behind the ‘All is in the name…’ catchphrase, however I am not sure it truly is ‘them’. Nevertheless, my theory is still indeed a Gunhild=Maja=Vier theory.
- Now to be clear, it is highly likely the “=” is not in the strictest sense like you might think of Shannon=Kanon for Umineko. About Vier/Gunhild, I’m investigating the possibility that Vier is indeed dead from the beginning, and she either somehow transferred her memories in Gunhild or else put a program inside her like Miyao has his own program. In both cases, Gunhild seems not to be conscious of it but it affects her behavior subconsciously (the program idea might fit because Miyao seems to do the same with his own program – at first he acts like he has no memory of when it speaks to him but at some point he finally realizes it’s there).
- Post-credit scene: Seshat in the Underground Lab speaks to an unknown person, a ‘sleepyhead’, and refers to ‘those two’. This person might be Maja (or Vier if she's not dead?) and ‘those two’ who can’t be here at the same time might the other two ‘personalities’. It would be reminiscent of Umineko when Shannon and Kanon must remain outside the Golden Land when Beatrice is inside – and they are apparently a three-person identity.
Well, that was it! Congrats if you read everything! ;)
<Think. Always think. Never give up on thinking. No matter how incomprehensible it all seems.>
One possible example: It seems to me like Gunhild immediately sabotages Miyao's Order by making it as leaky and un-secret as possible. Without asking permission, she tells Chloe about it seemingly as soon as she hears of it, and Chloe blabs to Lilja and Koshka. Then Gunhild says, "let's tell other kette." Well, at this point, the cat's already out of the bag, so how can Miyao refuse? And so, everyone immediately knows about it and it's no secret at all. Now, if she is an agent of the Kings (directly or indirectly), why does it matter how many people know about it if she has this secret info already and can leak it herself? Because, the more people are in on it, the harder it is to pin down who spilled the beans. That's just a guess.
On Seshat, and the nature of reality: The character info on her that says it's unknown whether her form is really like that or if it's just an avatar is really powerful to me. After all, didn't she do an in-person operation? She snuck into that airport lounge to break up a meeting and kill a dude. Then she flew off on an airplane, commented on how hard actual physical work is, and had some champagne. So she was physically there, and she didn't look any different from her chat appearance. So how can it not be known? Two possibilities spring to mind, and I'm sure more are possible. One is that you can project an avatar even in "real life." I don't think this is really discussed or even mentioned anywhere else, so that would be a bit weird to me, but anyway if that's how it is then it can really change a lot of things. (Or could it be Laughing Man-style real-time eye hacking? Another hugely complicating factor, though hopefully a rare one.) The other possibility is that none of that stuff happened as presented; maybe that was more notional and not so literal. The camera lying to you is a common theme in When They Cry, after all. But there has to be some basis for seeing real ground truth, so if those scenes are not to be taken literally, then we need to find some way to know which ones we CAN take literally. Otherwise we know nothing at all. What can we do? Do we assume Miyao is the "detective?"
About this scene possibly being metaphorical - in my opinion a LOT of scenes give that feeling, not just this one (that's not to say the whole story actually xD). Though sometimes it may indeed not mean that what we're shown is false but just add to the meaning or else make you understand the same scene from a different angle. For instance, I think it would be foolish of anyone so far into the story to believe the Underground Lab really exists. Rather than that, we need to think with both possible options in mind.
About cameras you are right - and the fact that this part of the plot in the series has been hugely overlooked by people until now will probably make it even harder for us to solve Ciconia. Have you read Higanbana? It might also help about this.
so you think underground lab does not exist?)
but what if i tell you it does and where it is located?)