Worth having two 1 cost weapons?

[Unbroken]

As title, is it worth having two 1 cost weapons? I ask because I got a pretty low cost Buzzing dagger and decided it was worth pulling down to 1 cost. But I've also got the NND that could potentially pulled down as well.

Or, is it better to find some other Primal Heavy weapon instead (I already have one which is really close to 10k damage)? (Or maybe even a Primal dagger, and reduce it to 1 too?)

[marleau.martin]

im only at galaxy 37 but for now...primal dagger is better than pimal big weapon

[Alketal]

Heavy weapons definitely have potential, but many conditions are needed to unleash full potential of heavy weapons. You have already fulfilled the first condition - a weapon with a base cost of 1, in order to be able to feed this big guy.

If you pay a high price, wouldn't it be better to get the maximum effect for it? If the weapon is Heavy, then there is a Syllable in the Dragon constellation, which increases the damage of Heavy weapons due to the Strength bonus . And since the Strength bonus comes into play, wouldn't it be better to double it with the Primal prefix? It's nice that you already have one.

It's also worth considering that you will need a huge amount of resources for the upgrade (especially steel) and a supply of suitable stones. If you don't have that stock right now, then Heavy Weapons can bring you more problems than benefits.

I don't know how much later it's worth to use heavy weapon. For myself, I chose the following answer: when I unlock the last equipment slot, but without harming the development of equipped items. So I keep my Primal Heavy in inventory without equipping it. But you can test it - who knows, maybe results will be surprisingly good.

I decided to use second weapon with base cost 1. Let's take an example with 3 gear slots. You have NND and 2 rings, each of which gives +100% total damage. The problem is that the effect of similar rings adds up before being multiplied by anything. Let's take a look at the relative effect of the rings. The first gives you +100%, the final damage becomes 200% - everything is clear here. But when you put on the second one, then doubling doesn't occur, because you already had 200%, and the result became 300% of the total weapon damage, therefore the relative effect of the second ring is x3/x2 = 1.5 - that is, only +50% in comparison with one ring. Thats why I hate relative diminishing returns.

Now suppose that in this third slot, instead of the second ring, I equip another exactly the same weapon. My damage will almost double. And then the ring will double it again - and due to the items in these three slots, my damage will increase not by 3, but by 4 times.

But what if I'm not equipping the same weapon, but more powerful? Then the effect of the second weapon will not be x2, but more. So, I chose a weapon with the "Primal" prefix.

Primal weapons are preferable not because they have outstanding benefits, but because other prefixes have too large penalties. Here you need to understand: Primal weapons double the BONUS from Strength, not damage. As a result, it turns out that the Primal weapon (in comparison with a weapon without prefix) deals 1.33 times more damage with Strength = 1, 1.87 times more damage with Strength = 13, 1.96 times more damage with Strength = 50, but never will do 2 times more damage. Well, why not? I still usually raise my Strength to 13 first - so I’ll have an item in this slot that steadily increases my total damage by +187%.

At first I thought I'd go for a Primal weapon with a base damage of 8 - because it’s maximal base weapon damage for which you can lower base cost to 1 within Quality 15 (because my NND is at Q15). But then I realised: I'm a fool. Well, I calculated the base cost - so what? After all, I didn't take into account that with a Quality 15 I'll have other stones. Then, at a Quality of 15, each Stone of Excellence will give me +15 to base damage, and each Stone of Claw - another +5. So it turns out that in this case my base damage will grow by (5* 15 + 5* 5) = 100.

So what's the difference between base damage 5 and 8? (8+ 100)/(5+100) = 108/105 = 1.0286 - do I really need to valiantly overcome problems, waste resources and tear my hair just for the sake of + 2.86% damage? Hell, no!

As a result, I took a Primal weapon with a base damage of 6 - I just got tired of resetting the Market, and this dagger turned out to be easier to get.

Now I have 2 weapons. The second is gradually growing, but I still use it. I put 4 skulls in it - it consistently gives me a +1 stat of my choice much earlier than it would get from any accessory with skull. But my favorite use is for temporary levels before the first Ritual in the Shard to get more comfortable start with maximum curse. At the start of the new Shard I increase the level of secondary weapon to 50 in order to use the skull and spend it on "Temporary levels" - and until the end of Zone 0 I have a level 210 weapon that simply melts enemies. On the main weapon, it somehow stings to spend skulls on temporary levels, but on the secondary it's ok.

[Unbroken]

Follow-up thoughts: I've progressed further and now find that my Primal Heavy is basically useless in a Dexterity-based build, provided that my daggers are of sufficient quality and/or I'm using that dagger ability that increases your base damage. The heavy simply doesn't stand a chance.

That said, in non-Dexterity builds, the heavy ends up being my primary source of weapon damage. This is with it being only Quality 3 and having sub-optimal stones on it too. So I guess I wanted to just say for everyone's benefit that heavy weapons aren't utterly useless, at least at certain points in your progression.

It's true, however, that you should definitely go for a low cost dagger first, however, because these let you start runs significantly faster. The heavy only comes into it's own after a few rebirths / higher levels. It also makes buying Increase Rubies well worth it. Though I also find initial damage to not be total rubbish... sure, weapons outpace it, but it's also really inexpensive even en masse.

I am finding that cost 1 NND at Quality 8 is not keeping pace with my cost 1 Quality 3 Primal Dagger. This is partially because I have an Excellence stone in the Primal Dagger.

Follow-up questions: I've seen it mentioned fairly often that having multiple weapons is better than trying to level one weapon, which I'm guessing is because of the way weapons scale?

I've also seen you give advice about Rings of Strength, which I generally understand. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on why multiple Rings of Strength are better than having more weapons? I understand that you don't have to level them up for long, so it saves money for other weapons. I also understand it's another multiplier. I just have a hard time understanding why more than one Ring of Strength will virtually always be better than another weapon. This is mostly a thought exercise, I think, because having so many upgraded weapons would take so many resources it might not even be possible.

[Alketal]

I'll start my answer from afar.

While doing theoretical calculations, don't forget about reality: the number of equipment slots is limited. And it made me take my choice of items more seriously.

Further, don't forget about skulls. To get the skull effect, you need to raise the item level to 50. In the case of accessories, this also means upgrading the item to Quality 5. At level 50, the Ring of Strength gives +100% total damage, the Ring of Dexterity gives +250% critical damage. Golden Rings are better because of lower base cost: it means that I get the same result, but earlier and for 5-8 times less rubies.

The following will be an example of how and why I chose my equipment.

Mandatory slots:

• 1. NND.
  No other options. The basis and origin of all damage, the center of the game universe.
  
• 2-3. 2x Gold Umbrellas.
  Why 2? Because I get more effect for less resources. In a sense, experience and SP is the best damage multiplier in the game, so I'm willing to pay with one free slot for the opportunity to have more SP both at the beginning of the Shard and at the end.
  
• 4. The Golden Ring of Strength.
  + 100% to all damage. A universal multiplier that fits any build.

Then there are those items that are not so versatile or taken for personal reasons. :

• 5. Combat gloves.
  I love this item for a variety of reasons.
  
  Firstly, it helps well at the start of the Shard, since at some point the damage of the Combat Gloves noticeably exceeds the damage of the character. Combat Gloves work with autoclick, which makes them even better. Later, the situation changes and the character starts to deal more damage, but this doesn't change the fact that the Combat Gloves help me get started.
  
  Secondly, to improve their Quality, you need the most common material - Iron. This greatly simplifies the process.
  
  Thirdly, the base cost of Combat Gloves is about 3 times lower than that of Golden Rings. This allows me to get "+1 stat" from skulls much earlier than I would get it from Golden Rings.
  
  In general, it may not be the most effective item from the point of view of min-maxing, but it increases my game comfort so much that I am ready to give it a free slot.
  
  
• 6. Golden Ring of Dexterity.
  A less versatile ring for one simple reason: not all builds use crit. Yes, this ring does more damage than the Ring of Strength, but only if the damage you inflicted is critical (it doesn't matter, melee crit or magic crit). As long as you don't deal critical damage with your main source of damage (and in the case of spellcaster builds, the main source of damage isn't the character), this ring is useless.
  
  This is the first candidate for replacement in cases where I need a situational items (for example, + max mana ring in case of Cursed Shard).
  
  But in case you use crits, then this ring is best combined with the Ring of Strength, because they give a different effect, and therefore multiply with each other, and don't add up.
  
  
• 7. Second weapon with base cost 1.
  I already wrote about my choice above, so I will not repeat myself.
  
  But let's look at the alternatives. The problem with accessories is that the same effects are added together before becoming a multiplier. We already have the Ring of Strength and Ring of Dexterity in other slots - what happens if we add another ring?
  
  When I have only 1 Ring of Strength, it gives me +100% damage - x2 multiplier. But if I add one more, then their effects are first summed up, so I get x3 multiplier - this is only x3 / x2 = 1.5 (+ 50%) relative damage growth.
  
  When I have 1 Ring of Dexterity, it gives me +250% critical damage - this is x3.5 critical multiplier. When you add a second ring of the same kind, the multiplier will grow to x6 - this is x6 / x3.5 = 1.71 (+ 71%) relative increase in critical damage.
  
  By adding a second weapon identical to the NND, I get about + 100% relative damage growth, and in the case of Primal weapons, this value rises to about + 187% - obviously better than adding a second ring.
  
  
• 8. Primal Heavy weapon.
  The last slot is for the big guy. I haven't done any stone ratio calculations or damage comparisons yet, because I need to collect usage statistics first. But preliminary theoretical calculations show that the joint use of NND and average weapon with a base damage of 7000 gives a noticeable result.
  https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1289668517479583109/2359C73491D07FB78963E94624B8EE09E6D12AEC/
  
  Unfortunately, the theory may differ slightly from practice, because at the moment there is a bug in the game that makes the damage of Heavy Weapons lower than expected.
  https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2416423768
  
  So I still need some usage statistics.
  
  I don't even consider adding a third weapon with a base cost of 1. Even if I add a second weapon with damage equal to x1.87 NND, then the relative increase in damage will be equal to (1 + 2*1.87)/ (1 + 1.87) = 1.65 (+65%). I'm not sure if I'm ready to spend so many resources for a damage increase somewhere between the addition of the second Ring of Strength and the second Ring of Dexterity. At least I'm ready to experiment with Heavy Weapons.

I'm not quite sure where the claim came from that multiple Rings of Strength are better than multiple weapons. But I have an assumption that several ideas previously expressed are likely mixed together here.

1. I didn't recommend using multiple weapons at the same time, but focusing on one at a time, because using optimized weapons and random weapons together hurts your overall damage. If you have empty slots, then it is better to really fill them with Rings of Strength. Maybe this isn't the best option, but it's at least somehow beneficial, because equipping unoptimized weapons brings harm rather than benefit.
   
2. I recommended getting steel rings from the Boss Chest and not dismantling them right away. This is your supply of materials. "Ring of Strength " (if written that way, without specifying material) is a steel ring. Steel will be useful for you to improve weapons, but if you don't have enough other materials and a suitable stone to insert, then don't disassemble the ring. If you have empty equipment slots, then an additional Ring of Strength will give you more value than just 20 Steel.