Landless Adventure's question

[SilentN4saken]

Probably a crazy question but can Landless Adventures with a culture / religion that allows it Raid? Please say yes, if no please change it so it will be yes :p

[Razorblade]

Adventurers cannot raid. Your Camp does not physically exist on the map like a County, so you'd have nowhere to return your loot to, even if you could raid.

[SilentN4saken]

^ If true then My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined

[Razorblade]

Originally posted by SilentN4saken:

If true

"Alright, we’ve got a couple of small elephants in this particular room that I’ve saved for last. Hopefully that means it won’t put you off other stuff in the dev diary, but apologies if this leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

First up is the biggie: raiding. Adventurers cannot raid and, relatedly, their camp is not a siegable thing on the map.

I know this is upsetting, but we just could not make it work. Raiding is by far and away the easiest way to earn gold, with the only drawback being the need to cart your gold back to your capital — but when your capital is, itself, a cart, that becomes uniquely problematic to balance or teach the AI to deal with.

Now, we could put in oodles of edge case handling for things like raising your army inside a realm you’re currently raiding, or moving your capital to follow your raiding army province-to-province so the gold instantly and safely reaches your treasury, but we couldn’t cover every possible exploit. Even one would utterly break the entire economy. It would have still ended up almost certainly absurdly easy to game the system by moving your camp somewhere within easy reach of a border, nipping over it, nabbing loot, then returning before the AI could conceivably even try to catch you.

Siegable camps likewise offered too many headaches for a robust implementation. Any number of camps can be in the same location, and as camps aren’t holdings, we would have had to do a huge amount of work just to support them being basically siegable at all — only to then have to work out what happens and how we display it visually if three adventurers are on different sides in a war in one county, one is in a different war, and two more are in the same county but not involved in anything, and a million other configurations.

That’s before getting into the verisimilitude of why it would ever take anything other than 1 day to siege a camp if you have, say, a single bombard, and consequently how adventurers would ever be able to win a war when reaching full occupation score against them would just be a matter of walking onto their capital once.

Rather than deliver these two aspects in a substandard condition, we’ve elected to avoid them entirely. Adventurers with a martial bent earn their coin from mercenary work and similar contracts, and adventuring camps are treated as not being worthwhile military targets. Neither of these is a reflection of historical reality, only of gameplay necessity."

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/dev-diary-152-landless-adventurers-part-ii.1698728/

[Lera]

Originally posted by Razorblade:

Originally posted by SilentN4saken:

If true

"Alright, we’ve got a couple of small elephants in this particular room that I’ve saved for last. Hopefully that means it won’t put you off other stuff in the dev diary, but apologies if this leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

First up is the biggie: raiding. Adventurers cannot raid and, relatedly, their camp is not a siegable thing on the map.

I know this is upsetting, but we just could not make it work. Raiding is by far and away the easiest way to earn gold, with the only drawback being the need to cart your gold back to your capital — but when your capital is, itself, a cart, that becomes uniquely problematic to balance or teach the AI to deal with.

Now, we could put in oodles of edge case handling for things like raising your army inside a realm you’re currently raiding, or moving your capital to follow your raiding army province-to-province so the gold instantly and safely reaches your treasury, but we couldn’t cover every possible exploit. Even one would utterly break the entire economy. It would have still ended up almost certainly absurdly easy to game the system by moving your camp somewhere within easy reach of a border, nipping over it, nabbing loot, then returning before the AI could conceivably even try to catch you.

Siegable camps likewise offered too many headaches for a robust implementation. Any number of camps can be in the same location, and as camps aren’t holdings, we would have had to do a huge amount of work just to support them being basically siegable at all — only to then have to work out what happens and how we display it visually if three adventurers are on different sides in a war in one county, one is in a different war, and two more are in the same county but not involved in anything, and a million other configurations.

That’s before getting into the verisimilitude of why it would ever take anything other than 1 day to siege a camp if you have, say, a single bombard, and consequently how adventurers would ever be able to win a war when reaching full occupation score against them would just be a matter of walking onto their capital once.

Rather than deliver these two aspects in a substandard condition, we’ve elected to avoid them entirely. Adventurers with a martial bent earn their coin from mercenary work and similar contracts, and adventuring camps are treated as not being worthwhile military targets. Neither of these is a reflection of historical reality, only of gameplay necessity."

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/dev-diary-152-landless-adventurers-part-ii.1698728/

Thanks for the read, this was actually really informative.

[SilentN4saken]

Originally posted by Razorblade:

Originally posted by SilentN4saken:

If true

"Alright, we’ve got a couple of small elephants in this particular room that I’ve saved for last. Hopefully that means it won’t put you off other stuff in the dev diary, but apologies if this leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

First up is the biggie: raiding. Adventurers cannot raid and, relatedly, their camp is not a siegable thing on the map.

I know this is upsetting, but we just could not make it work. Raiding is by far and away the easiest way to earn gold, with the only drawback being the need to cart your gold back to your capital — but when your capital is, itself, a cart, that becomes uniquely problematic to balance or teach the AI to deal with.

Now, we could put in oodles of edge case handling for things like raising your army inside a realm you’re currently raiding, or moving your capital to follow your raiding army province-to-province so the gold instantly and safely reaches your treasury, but we couldn’t cover every possible exploit. Even one would utterly break the entire economy. It would have still ended up almost certainly absurdly easy to game the system by moving your camp somewhere within easy reach of a border, nipping over it, nabbing loot, then returning before the AI could conceivably even try to catch you.

Siegable camps likewise offered too many headaches for a robust implementation. Any number of camps can be in the same location, and as camps aren’t holdings, we would have had to do a huge amount of work just to support them being basically siegable at all — only to then have to work out what happens and how we display it visually if three adventurers are on different sides in a war in one county, one is in a different war, and two more are in the same county but not involved in anything, and a million other configurations.

That’s before getting into the verisimilitude of why it would ever take anything other than 1 day to siege a camp if you have, say, a single bombard, and consequently how adventurers would ever be able to win a war when reaching full occupation score against them would just be a matter of walking onto their capital once.

Rather than deliver these two aspects in a substandard condition, we’ve elected to avoid them entirely. Adventurers with a martial bent earn their coin from mercenary work and similar contracts, and adventuring camps are treated as not being worthwhile military targets. Neither of these is a reflection of historical reality, only of gameplay necessity."

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/dev-diary-152-landless-adventurers-part-ii.1698728/

My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.
Thanks for for the info and the link I'd give an extra helpful award but I'm one point off :p

[drake_hound]

Well Understandable you can't raid, as adventurer. too many economical exploit with that.
As Norse Merchant republic in CK2 showed.

But can't attack other adventurer camps etc... that I am bit dissapointed with.
Ah well can't have it all, still disappointing though,
That you can't attack capture or kill your fellow adventurer.
Even if it just a battlescreen or duel screen, don't need sieging camps cause of the reasons DEV diary mentioning it.
But a easy fix was to attack other camp was simply leading to a battle screen and the defeated camp get destroyed their loot added to yours. or something like that.

Well Maybe in Wandering nobles. ( I don't think so but one can hope)

[SilentN4saken]

Originally posted by drake_hound:

Well Understandable you can't raid, as adventurer. too many economical exploit with that.
As Norse Merchant republic in CK2 showed.

But can't attack other adventurer camps etc... that I am bit dissapointed with.
Ah well can't have it all, still disappointing though,
That you can't attack capture or kill your fellow adventurer.
Even if it just a battlescreen or duel screen, don't need sieging camps cause of the reasons DEV diary mentioning it.
But a easy fix was to attack other camp was simply leading to a battle screen and the defeated camp get destroyed their loot added to yours. or something like that.

Well Maybe in Wandering nobles. ( I don't think so but one can hope)

Meh I get it but at the same time some people will always exploit things, I mostly stopped raiding once I was a republic. I would have just fixed the exploiting by having trade be more profitable then raiding an make buildings an the like cost more, an probably increasing the chance/frequency of the trade route event when you took business focus.

Yeah I would have liked if adventure's could attack each other, maybe they will make it an intrigue thing like with the estates system if estates can raid each others estates via plots why not adventures raiding each others camps the same way? Thinking of that gave me an idea why not just have adventures be able to plot to raid the ruler where the camp is located? again only if culture/religion allows it, an maybe also criminals if they have a lot of followers or something? like instead of just being a petty criminal you get strong enough to be a bandit/raider.

[jordop]

Exploitable? Like it is as a landed character? It's nonsense that you can't raid as a Viking adventurer