Templars are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid OP

[DrunkenTee]

How the hell are you supposed to win against them early game? I want to conquer a small state next to me to get my first bishop title and they keep pulling +2500 templars out of their ass which whoop me back into the stoneage. Those Templars alone have pushed me back whooping 65 years of income alone.

Im about to just give up on this whole save.

Update: They indeed just single handedly ended the savegame for me. This is unbelieveable.

[pinkfloyd9193]

I haven't played in a bit, and i wasn't great at the game to begin. However, i do recall big factors in battles being Advantage and certain units countering others.
Have you made sure to not attack the enemy where they have a lot of advantage, as well as trying to counter the templar unit make-up?

[DrunkenTee]

Początkowo opublikowane przez pinkfloyd9193:

I haven't played in a bit, and i wasn't great at the game to begin. However, i do recall big factors in battles being Advantage and certain units countering others.
Have you made sure to not attack the enemy where they have a lot of advantage, as well as trying to counter the templar unit make-up?

None of that matters, I was fully countering the enemy and I was defending on hills, which gave me a strong buff on all my units. Templars still wipe me off the field.

I just died 20 seconds ago to drinking.

The Templars made all my kids rise up against me and demolish my kingdom, I lost my whole council, all my Champions were slaughtered by the Templars. My wife drank herself to death, which made my guy drink himself to death. I was in debt for over 90 years while earning -5.7 without any armies etc. I kept getting robbed without the ability to defend myself. Several factions rose up against me due to crappy conditions.

My whole savegame was blown apart by literally Templars, even when 2100 of those 2500 Templars are just peasants.

[jpcerutti]

Początkowo opublikowane przez DrunkenTee:

Początkowo opublikowane przez pinkfloyd9193:

I haven't played in a bit, and i wasn't great at the game to begin. However, i do recall big factors in battles being Advantage and certain units countering others.
Have you made sure to not attack the enemy where they have a lot of advantage, as well as trying to counter the templar unit make-up?

None of that matters, I was fully countering the enemy and I was defending on hills, which gave me a strong buff on all my units. Templars still wipe me off the field.

I just died 20 seconds ago to drinking.

The Templars made all my kids rise up against me and demolish my kingdom, I lost my whole council, all my Champions were slaughtered by the Templars. My wife drank herself to death, which made my guy drink himself to death. I was in debt for over 90 years while earning -5.7 without any armies etc. I kept getting robbed without the ability to defend myself. Several factions rose up against me due to crappy conditions.

My whole savegame was blown apart by literally Templars, even when 2100 of those 2500 Templars are just peasants.

While I understand your pain, hoping this is just some kind of rambling rant against the universe in general. Sometimes the game does defeat you, especially while you are learning, but Templars are pretty far down on the list of the games' 'boogeymen'. Blaming them for everything that happened is... kinda a stretch.

What are you looking for? Commesuration? Reassurement? Just some generalized hate on holy orders? Ideas on how to work it differently? Forum can do most all of those things.

Quickest, cheapest, easiest answer is just watch 'em. Wait for the Templars to take up a cause somewhere else THEN declare war on your target. They might hire Mercs though, so you might be back in the same boat again if you don't have a few gold lying around to hire Mercs of your own.

[Yakubian Demon Magick]

take a page from the hapsburgs and conquer through marriage, not war

[armyissue69]

Tarkan Heavy Cavalry would make quick work of em. Mubarizun Heavy Infantry. Both of those have bonuses against 2 units and both of them include against heavy infantry. Couple that with Eastern Roman +2 Heavy Infantry / Cavalry units.

Like JP says, really... you are just learning and hit a painful spot. Heavy Infantry are very good but there are so many way better units than order knights.

You might be in a holy war in which case, maybe other orders were called? Anyways, live n learn ;)

Good Luck

[dwarfpcfan]

Holy orders are the cheapest way A.Is have to buff up their forces when fighting other religions. And since catholics get more and faster access to holy orders then everyone else, yeah every war against a catholic ruler as a non catholic requires you to take them into account, because catholic rulers will ALWAYS call holy orders to war when fighting you either in an offensive or defensive war. Adding to this frustration is that they basically teleport in fully raised as soon as a war is declared, regardless of if the actual realm army was recently raised and might have to wait 6 months to raise.

That said, order knights themselves as a unit are really nothing special. They are heavy infantry barely better then generic heavy infantry. Every cultural heavy infantry unit in the game is better then them.

honestly the lesson here is if you're going to be fighting catholics, always assume they have an extra 3K army composed of heavy infantry to poof out of thin air against you.

[Khan Boyzitbig of Mercia]

I suspect the Knights Templar aren't your problem, The Grandmaster of the Knights Templar is.

Holy order commanders tend to be very good leaders with high martial and a commander trait or two (e.g. Holy Warrior) and each point of advantage makes troops a fair amount more deadly. Also they might bring some good Knights too that aren't the MAA unit.

[wei270]

also couldn't you just stack light infantry so that their combat value drops to like 10%

[Mr Conspicuous]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bx7NRXFTqk

35 seconds details whats happening to your game.

[Razorblade]

1. Don't play a pagan in a predominantly Christian area. They didn't fair well historically, and they don't fair well in CK3 either.

2. Allies.

3. Holy Orders cost Piety to hire; just don't attack a ruler that has Piety to spend.

[DrunkenTee]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Razorblade:

1. Don't play a pagan in a predominantly Christian area. They didn't fair well historically, and they don't fair well in CK3 either.

2. Allies.

3. Holy Orders cost Piety to hire; just don't attack a ruler that has Piety to spend.

1. I've done it again and now I am ruling most of Britannia. I got the King title of England and Wales, I could own the titles of Scotland and Ireland too, but I am already saving up for my Britannia title. I just need a few more counties.

2. Don't need em, never did. The AI Allies play so god forbidden awkardly in this game, such stupidity I have never seen before and having played HOI4 for quite a while, it blew my mind how stupid they are. They run after me like dogs, when obviously the county is already way overfilled with my own army and there are plenty other armies walking around they could go attack instead which they certainly have the strength for, but why fight a 300 peasant mob as a 700 man army when they can run after my 4000 instead, that is busy in a whole different campaign.

If it wasnt for trying out allies in this savegame (and they have not helped once), I would already have the prestige necessary to get all the culture traditions I aimed for. I've won against 4500 armies with my 1800 army. 15 Champions at 228% efficiency carrying the game with about a third 22-32 fighting skills and the rest 10-16.

3. I noticed that in my first run, those Templars are a literal cheat. In my current savegame I can make a Holy Order of my own, but Im saving the gold for the Britannia title.

[Inner Observer]

I have now crazy ~820% knights efficiency, wonder, what's max value achiveable? That's with some broken mods, surely this almost impossible in fair game. Met templars and butchered them, 25 knights, each knight killed 50-70 enemy soldiers.

[DrunkenTee]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Inner Observer:

I have now crazy ~820% knights efficiency, wonder, what's max value achiveable? Met templars and butchered them, 25 knights, each knight killed 50-70 enemy soldiers.

I've done so many fights on my own versus other armies, without any merc's or allies, in this savegame that I have a peg leg, my remaining foot is crippled, I got an eye stabbed out, I got scars in my face. Certainly should have upped my fighting skill a bit more - but I am still alive. Long live the King.

[Inner Observer]

That's the spirit! When my son came into age, I sent him to Varangian guard. He had prowess 27 and returned one-legged but othewise he's fine.

[Nateball]

Your problem is being massively in debt during this whole ordeal. That's a -30 combat advantage alone, which is something like +3x damage multiplier for their units. You should fight a battle with them and tell us what the overall advantage modifier is for your army. I would assume despite you having hills, etc, they are still at the advantage due to debt.