If You're Serious About Warfare the AI Needs to Beat the Stuffing Out of You. Regularly.

[jpcerutti]

Just reverting to CK2 isn't going to fix that, nor is tinkering with the finer points of anything, nor is restructuring MAA, nor is changing how knights work. Arguing one mechanic is more strategic, or realistic, or challenging is arguing in minutiae circles until that AI whoopin' happens.

First you have to decide if that's really what you want. Do you want elephants in your Viking army and over the top genetically engineered knights? They are great fun to play but not particularly realistic. Giving the AI crazy bonuses to compensate for its limitations has been tried and isn't particularly well liked. It is there and you can use it though. Handicapping the player somehow to squeeze them to AI levels is even less popular.

They are going to change the warfare AI soon, but even an 'improved' AI is only going to beat you for as long as it takes you to figure a way around it.

Do you want to play a game that regularly beats you or is this more of a medieval sandbox now where you mod, and tinker, and try strange things just to see what happens? How often do you want to see the endgame screen?

[VoiD]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

Do you want to play a game that regularly beats you or...

Yes, absolutely, in fact the game has no chance of ever be worth playing until this is addressed

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

I'd actually like a game that beats me most of the time. I remember being fond of my first electronic chess machine. Never reached a better level than the 4th over the 9 there were.
Losing is part of the fun in games, be it board games, sports...

The less I see the endgame screen, the more I enjoy seeing it. What's rare is always more valuable.

[jpcerutti]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von VoiD:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

Do you want to play a game that regularly beats you or...

Yes, absolutely, in fact the game has no chance of ever be worth playing until this is addressed

Heh. Kinda knew where you'd fall on that, and the game can be used for all sorts of things besides just warfare. AGOT is the most popular mod - which I suspect neither of us play.

[brownacs]

I've actually never seen the game over screen (barring playing until 1453... is it the same screen?) and I'm at 2000 hours ish, playing since release.

Agreed in principle that I'd like to be challenged more but then I don't know how you balance making a game with 1 difficulty setting challenging for people with 2000 hours and also approachable for people with 0. And I think we all know that more difficulty settings would just mean the AI would get to cheat, not that it'd make better decisions.

[Bishi]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brownacs:

I've actually never seen the game over screen (barring playing until 1453... is it the same screen?) and I'm at 2000 hours ish, playing since release.

Agreed in principle that I'd like to be challenged more but then I don't know how you balance making a game with 1 difficulty setting challenging for people with 2000 hours and also approachable for people with 0. And I think we all know that more difficulty settings would just mean the AI would get to cheat, not that it'd make better decisions.

I once got crusaded as a Vlach vassal of the Pechenegs. It was really funny because I held the entire territory of Moldavia as an Orthodox Christian. Thanks for saving me Mr. Pope sir... Oh I guess Moldavia is for the Crusaders now...

Before RtP the game over screen was pretty much the same as the death screen with an option to return to the main menu.

[jpcerutti]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brownacs:

I've actually never seen the game over screen (barring playing until 1453... is it the same screen?) and I'm at 2000 hours ish, playing since release.

Agreed in principle that I'd like to be challenged more but then I don't know how you balance making a game with 1 difficulty setting challenging for people with 2000 hours and also approachable for people with 0. And I think we all know that more difficulty settings would just mean the AI would get to cheat, not that it'd make better decisions.

Would probably have to be some of both, some restructuring of the AI to use the things that have been added to the game AND some outright AI 'cheating' for challenge. The Conqueror/scourge add and the rules settings variants have partially addressed it both for handicapping and AI 'bonuses' so you can vary difficulty some over your learning curve.

First you have to decide though, do I want to be 'superman'? Do I want crazy things like Sicilian Horse Archers in the game while I steamroll the map as the Salerno Scourge with my knight mafia? Keeping those kinds of things in the game AND any sort of balancing are practically impossible.

Once decided, grand champion or the world or perhaps just a little smarter than the average bear, then how to get there is easier to figure out.

[Abacus]

"If You're Serious About Warfare"

But they aren't, it's not supposed to be a main feature of the game really.

But yeah, copy pasting CK2 is just reformatting the MAA, since the MAA is a reformat of the formula of ck2's system.

I would like a more interactive battle screen where you can apply tactic (select them and they may pop.) Which can cause all kinds of effects, from a large chunk of damage, a buff, to an event.

That is something we may see, as it's easy to visualize. Maybe havinf the tactical knowlege like being a "open terrain specialist" or a "Forder" will give you a selection of tactics.

War should never be the focus, but I wont mind a few updates and maybe ONE DLC that puts it center stage.

[Seth]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

Just reverting to CK2 isn't going to fix that, nor is tinkering with the finer points of anything, nor is restructuring MAA, nor is changing how knights work. Arguing one mechanic is more strategic, or realistic, or challenging is arguing in minutiae circles until that AI whoopin' happens.

First you have to decide if that's really what you want. Do you want elephants in your Viking army and over the top genetically engineered knights? They are great fun to play but not particularly realistic. Giving the AI crazy bonuses to compensate for its limitations has been tried and isn't particularly well liked. It is there and you can use it though. Handicapping the player somehow to squeeze them to AI levels is even less popular.

They are going to change the warfare AI soon, but even an 'improved' AI is only going to beat you for as long as it takes you to figure a way around it.

Do you want to play a game that regularly beats you or is this more of a medieval sandbox now where you mod, and tinker, and try strange things just to see what happens? How often do you want to see the endgame screen?

And i wish to be more challenging because that make strategy more interesting.

In CK2, I made the AI more dangerous by making their targeting decisions. This made them attack you (the player) first when they had an opportunity(i mean if they arn't your allies or in peace with you then you will be f....d), even if they had smaller forces. However, I added conditions(for those who are weaker then you): they could only attack if they had at least 2,000 soldiers, or no more than 5,000 fewer soldiers than you, and they also needed at least one or two allies. This made the AI more dangerous. Something like this in CK3 would make the AI much smarter and stronger. The developers could make it even more complex; this was just a simple explanation of my mod. I hope i didn't miss the point of discussion.

[jpcerutti]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Seth:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

Just reverting to CK2 isn't going to fix that, nor is tinkering with the finer points of anything, nor is restructuring MAA, nor is changing how knights work. Arguing one mechanic is more strategic, or realistic, or challenging is arguing in minutiae circles until that AI whoopin' happens.

First you have to decide if that's really what you want. Do you want elephants in your Viking army and over the top genetically engineered knights? They are great fun to play but not particularly realistic. Giving the AI crazy bonuses to compensate for its limitations has been tried and isn't particularly well liked. It is there and you can use it though. Handicapping the player somehow to squeeze them to AI levels is even less popular.

They are going to change the warfare AI soon, but even an 'improved' AI is only going to beat you for as long as it takes you to figure a way around it.

Do you want to play a game that regularly beats you or is this more of a medieval sandbox now where you mod, and tinker, and try strange things just to see what happens? How often do you want to see the endgame screen?

And i wish to be more challenging because that make strategy more interesting.

In CK2, I made the AI more dangerous by making their targeting decisions. This made them attack you (the player) first when they had an opportunity(i mean if they arn't your allies or in peace with you then you will be f....d), even if they had smaller forces. However, I added conditions(for those who are weaker then you): they could only attack if they had at least 2,000 soldiers, or no more than 5,000 fewer soldiers than you, and they also needed at least one or two allies. This made the AI more dangerous. Something like this in CK3 would make the AI much smarter and stronger. The developers could make it even more complex; this was just a simple explanation of my mod. I hope i didn't miss the point of discussion.

Not quite following your choice. So you regularly got game overs?

[Seth]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Seth:

And i wish to be more challenging because that make strategy more interesting.

In CK2, I made the AI more dangerous by making their targeting decisions. This made them attack you (the player) first when they had an opportunity(i mean if they arn't your allies or in peace with you then you will be f....d), even if they had smaller forces. However, I added conditions(for those who are weaker then you): they could only attack if they had at least 2,000 soldiers, or no more than 5,000 fewer soldiers than you, and they also needed at least one or two allies. This made the AI more dangerous. Something like this in CK3 would make the AI much smarter and stronger. The developers could make it even more complex; this was just a simple explanation of my mod. I hope i didn't miss the point of discussion.

Not quite following your choice. So you regularly got game overs?

If I hadn't gone back to my saves, it would have been game over. So my answer is yes. That don't mean it was always like that.

[jpcerutti]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Abacus:

"If You're Serious About Warfare"

But they aren't, it's not supposed to be a main feature of the game really.

But yeah, copy pasting CK2 is just reformatting the MAA, since the MAA is a reformat of the formula of ck2's system.

I would like a more interactive battle screen where you can apply tactic (select them and they may pop.) Which can cause all kinds of effects, from a large chunk of damage, a buff, to an event.

That is something we may see, as it's easy to visualize. Maybe havinf the tactical knowlege like being a "open terrain specialist" or a "Forder" will give you a selection of tactics.

War should never be the focus, but I wont mind a few updates and maybe ONE DLC that puts it center stage.

I also see where it has wandered awful far from the CK1 origin of just warfare, and certainly agree that warfare is just a slice of CK3, but are you everyman or hero? Would you even want regular 'game overs'? The forum complaints for unavoidable deaths from randomness, war and plague were... quite loud.

If we balance, and focus on realism, the odds of a lone Duke successfully rebelling against a King or Count against that Duke, are quite small for example - no matter the modifiers.

[Seth]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Abacus:

"If You're Serious About Warfare"

But they aren't, it's not supposed to be a main feature of the game really.

But yeah, copy pasting CK2 is just reformatting the MAA, since the MAA is a reformat of the formula of ck2's system.

I would like a more interactive battle screen where you can apply tactic (select them and they may pop.) Which can cause all kinds of effects, from a large chunk of damage, a buff, to an event.

That is something we may see, as it's easy to visualize. Maybe havinf the tactical knowlege like being a "open terrain specialist" or a "Forder" will give you a selection of tactics.

War should never be the focus, but I wont mind a few updates and maybe ONE DLC that puts it center stage.

I also see where it has wandered awful far from the CK1 origin of just warfare, and certainly agree that warfare is just a slice of CK3, but are you everyman or hero? Would you even want regular 'game overs'? The forum complaints for unavoidable deaths from randomness, war and plague were... quite loud.

Solution:
"Those who want hard mode should get it(like i wish), and those who prefer normal(like it is now) or easy mode should get that. -fair for every player."
And who knows maybe players from easy/normal mod would switch to hard for more challenges.

[dwarfpcfan]

I personally don't want a harder AI per say. I want an A.I that acts nore like a medieval ruler, The King of Scotland should not march 10K men to poland to die horribly because his third daughter married a count there in diplo range and now that idiot 1 county count declares holy wars non stop on his pagan neighbors because the math says he win when adding his 500 troops to the 10k of scotland,

In fact his daughter should never get into that kind of marriage, she should be married to someone in England or Ireland or Wales or maybe France, places Scotland could have vested interest or relations with. No the King of Scotland will not depleted his realm of armed men for who knows how long because a 1 county count in west poland hates pagans.

Thats silly, stuff like that needs to stop the king of Scotland would never do this, especially not when he's got England and Vikings barking at his heels regardless of his daughter being married to some nobody count.

[jpcerutti]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Seth:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

I also see where it has wandered awful far from the CK1 origin of just warfare, and certainly agree that warfare is just a slice of CK3, but are you everyman or hero? Would you even want regular 'game overs'? The forum complaints for unavoidable deaths from randomness, war and plague were... quite loud.

Solution:
"Those who want hard mode should get it(like i wish), and those who prefer normal(like it is now) or easy mode should get that. -fair for every player."
And who knows maybe players from easy/normal mod would switch to hard for more challenges.

Not sure reloading saves, or adding a new hard mode, is the answer. You can already set 'hardness' by handicapping yourself/buffing AI with the rule set, just doing or not doing things, and there are mods that increase hardness over that even.

I think it boils down to - do you want to be some extra-ordinary hero or are you fine with having your head handed to you whenever you make a mistake, take a bigger bite than you should, or when the AI just feels like it? Certainly half the time when you are reasonably evenly matched.

Have played games where the AI was just going to stop you and the bar was to add cheats to you to balance things out. I don't think that's the answer here either.

A 'smart' AI is going to wait you out while you starve in the mountains, not divide forces, and is going to certainly try to counter whatever you bring to the conflict. Unless you have overwhelming odds you should lose. A lot.

[Seth]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von jpcerutti:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Seth:

Solution:
"Those who want hard mode should get it(like i wish), and those who prefer normal(like it is now) or easy mode should get that. -fair for every player."
And who knows maybe players from easy/normal mod would switch to hard for more challenges.

Not sure reloading saves, or adding a new hard mode, is the answer. You can already set 'hardness' by handicapping yourself/buffing AI with the rule set, just doing or not doing things, and there are mods that increase hardness over that even.

I think it boils down to - do you want to be some extra-ordinary hero or are you fine with having your head handed to you whenever you make a mistake, take a bigger bite than you should, or when the AI just feels like it? Certainly half the time when you are reasonably evenly matched.

You have a good point there.
But "normal mode" can quickly become boring, and modding CK3 to your liking (or anyone else's) isn't an option because I believe that the developers who created the game can make a "hard mode" more effectively than I could. A mod I create might also slow down the game if the code isn't well-written, since they have complete access to the game's code, whereas they only give us access to a limited portion of it. This likely means we can only change about 30% (or probably even less) of the game's code. Which can limit us in making ower "wish".

Edited:

"Have played games where the AI was just going to stop you and the bar was to add cheats to you to balance things out. I don't think that's the answer here either."

Personally i didn't play unbeetable game but i did "hard games".
If you're familiar with the RPG Elden Ring, you know how difficult it is. Yet, players eventually defeat the final boss. This means the developers created the game with the possibility of winning if you know how to play. The same could be applied for a "hard mode" in CK3—it should be challenging, but not impossible to win.

"A 'smart' AI is going to wait you out while you starve in the mountains, not divide forces, and is going to certainly try to counter whatever you bring to the conflict. Unless you have overwhelming odds you should lose. A lot."

That truly intelligent AI is something you, I, and this community will likely never see. Because AI isn't yet smart enough to think like a human. Perhaps in another 100-150 years, players of CK8 will have it. For now we can only hope for better condition which they follow.