Why is this tyranny?

[Jack Niggleson]

I just captured a rival claimant who I've been fighting a lengthy civil war with. Even with this schmuck in jail though I'm only at 50% war score, so I figured I just execute him and end the war that way. I go to give him the axe, only to find out that this will be considered tyranny.

Literally why? What is the rationale behind this? If executing a rebellious traitor who was out for my head himself is "tyranny" then what isn't tyranny? Farting in an elevator? Where do you draw the line at that point.

The standards of kingly bad behavior in CK are so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ bizarre it makes me wonder wonder if the devs realize that the rest of the world, now and historically, is not the same as Sweden, land of a thousand manginas.

[Wolf]

eh... Indeed you would think overall a king executing someone who tried to claim his throne to be accepted by people... especially those loyal to you. But things are the way they are in the game.

I just consider this stuff like medieval political red tape.

rotting in a dungeon cell does its job tho.

havent played in awhile... but something i found kinda gamey was making someone really hate you and revoking title. They would say no way and rebel.

since they rebelled they were a criminal and gave me reason to revoke their title. No idea if that still works, but its like.... yes my action WOULDA been tyrannical... but.... he kinda rebelled so....

[Tarshaid]

Publicado originalmente por Wolf0608:

eh... Indeed you would think overall a king executing someone who tried to claim his throne to be accepted by people... especially those loyal to you. But things are the way they are in the game.

I just consider this stuff like medieval political red tape.

rotting in a dungeon cell does its job tho.

havent played in awhile... but something i found kinda gamey was making someone really hate you and revoking title. They would say no way and rebel.

since they rebelled they were a criminal and gave me reason to revoke their title. No idea if that still works, but its like.... yes my action WOULDA been tyrannical... but.... he kinda rebelled so....

That's the whole concept. Your vassals are going to get pissed off if you don't have an excuse to screw with your vassals (and courtiers but there's seldom reasons to screw with those). Even there, the vassals are only going to tolerate a certain amount of punishment, so somebody rebelling can end up jailed and have his titles revoked (to a degree) but you can't execute him for that. Moreover, once a crime is punished, you can't go ham on it a second time.
There's a nice table here https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Court#Crime that sums up what can be punished and how. For instance, plotting against you only allows you to imprison them, while actually trying to pull off a murder and failing can be punished by death.

And obviously, if you uncover someone's secret murder attempt but don't actually reveal it, you'll just look like a villain.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Well than just lets be tyrianical.

-this is not a federation of states where you vassals allow me to be your president..

This is all my personal domain I own all taxes all vassals..
-i am your owner and you are my slaves just as the peasants in the field.
-you may think your nobles like me but you are not you are merely houseslaves rather than those worker till death on the field.
-and if a houseslave does not know his place.. you are shot and replaced.. litterly any other peasant can take your place.. and would volenteer to kill you to do so.

No you do not get to press claims.. You never had rights to begin with.
You also do not own anything.. You do not own a title, you merely manage my plantation for me.. I can revoke your job or apoint anybody else for that job if you fail me..

Oh and lastly you do not get to renogiciate the contract.
I take 100% of levy, no reason for you to have armies, slave..
And 95% of taxes... And thats of total.. If you want assistants pay then of your share, not mine..
-i get to apoint your succesor at your death
-i get to revoke your title and kill you if you fail me.

(If only we could do that) ;)

[saintduiex]

Max tyranny = 1000, which, based upon the wiki info below, is a lot of tyrannical actions. The base decay per month is .25. There are a few other modifiers that will increase the monthly tyranny decay.

So, if you lop off a head or banish, no biggie. Even the occasional mass imprisonments should be “fine”. They’ll get over it :)

Successfully imprisoning a character +20 tyranny
Increasing feudal obligations +20 tyranny per obligation without concession or hooks
Revoking title without title revocation reason +20 tyranny
Retracting a vassal +5 tyranny
Banishing a vassal +5 tyranny
Executing a vassal +10 tyranny

[Jack Niggleson]

Publicado originalmente por Eilif:

Throw your prisoner from house arrest to the dungeon - You're a tyrant.
Imprison your fathers murderer - You're a tyrant.
Imprison a person plotting against you - You're a tyrant.
Adjust feudal contract to one of your vassal to pay normal tax like all the other vassals -You're a tyrant.
Revoke more than one title from the vassal who rebeled against you. - You're a tyrant.
Have your mother and widow arrested for finding herself a new lover - Thats only fair. Let her rot a lifetime in jail.

You can actually move them to the dungeon without taking a tyranny hit. You just lose relation with the family. Everything else though, yeah.

It also gets very annoying when managing a large empire when all the adultery and scheming your vassals commit constantly forces you to chose between -30 rep with them and their family and losing an entire level of devotion.

[Das Boot]

You could have tried to get him excommunicated. Excommunicates can be executed with zero consequences.

[Wan Yao]

Publicado originalmente por Nugget Head:

Publicado originalmente por TheWatcherUatu:

The way I look at it is he had a casus belli against you, which means he had a legal right to raise an army against you. You may not like it, but there are rules within your civilization about how prisoners are treated and what the penalties are for losing a war. Executing him is considered a war crime, essentially.

Once the war is concluded, you can revoke his titles, anyway, and ruin his life.

That's moronic. Why does he have more rights than any other random idiot in my dungeon who doesn't incur this absurd penalty? It isn't even a class issue since I execute other noblemen all the time for offenses much less serious than starting a bloody (and pointless) civil war.

Anyway, in the end it's moot. I tortured him then had him castrated, neither of which the game considers "tyrannical." A month later he died on his own from the resulting health penalties.

Because he is a CLAIMANT. That means he has a RIGHT to be at war with you.

In his eyes -- and the eyes of many -- his right to rule your domain is MORE legitimate than yours. And it's YOU who is the unworthy rando who deserves to rot in the dungeon.

He's not a "random idiot." Technically, he's your peer and your equal. That's the thing you have to understand about the middle ages. Divine Right, absolutism etc are very late developments. In the middle ages a king was very much first among equals and ruled only with the consent of his vassals.

Of course. You don't care about this. You don't want a historical simulation, you want to power game.... Perhaps CK3 isn't for you?

[Jack Niggleson]

Publicado originalmente por Wan Yao:

Publicado originalmente por Nugget Head:

That's moronic. Why does he have more rights than any other random idiot in my dungeon who doesn't incur this absurd penalty? It isn't even a class issue since I execute other noblemen all the time for offenses much less serious than starting a bloody (and pointless) civil war.

Anyway, in the end it's moot. I tortured him then had him castrated, neither of which the game considers "tyrannical." A month later he died on his own from the resulting health penalties.

Because he is a CLAIMANT. That means he has a RIGHT to be at war with you.

In his eyes -- and the eyes of many -- his right to rule your domain is MORE legitimate than yours. And it's YOU who is the unworthy rando who deserves to rot in the dungeon.

He's not a "random idiot." Technically, he's your peer and your equal. That's the thing you have to understand about the middle ages. Divine Right, absolutism etc are very late developments. In the middle ages a king was very much first among equals and ruled only with the consent of his vassals.

Of course. You don't care about this. You don't want a historical simulation, you want to power game.... Perhaps CK3 isn't for you?

Nah, sorry that's absurd. Treason has always been dealt with harshly. History is riddled with kings who killed their own fractious brothers and cousins as a matter of course to secure power.

This guy isn't even that either. Not the same dynasty, not even the same ethnicity/culture. And hilariously he's claiming an entire empire that he and his holdings weren't even part of a few years ago. He has a claim because any lord in CK with sufficient resources can create one (regardless of whether it makes sense) not because he has any actual connection to the title.

There isn't some well thought out historical reason why it's "tyrannical" for me to whack him, it's just another area where the game is glaringly shallow.

[Jack Niggleson]

Publicado originalmente por Das Boot:

You could have tried to get him excommunicated. Excommunicates can be executed with zero consequences.

Yeah, I didn't realize excommunication did that at the time, but I've done it a couple times since. It never hurts to have the patriarch/pope in your pocket as a christian monarch.

[VayneVerso]

I mean, I get why it's tyranny, but the OP (and a few others, like Eilif) aren't wrong that the game seems a bit inconsistent--morally, if not legally--about what is considered tyranny. It can be pretty confusing to attempt to wrap your mind around why you can torture somebody or consign them to die in a dungeon, but executing them is beyond the pale.

[Bogdan]

I find it funny how much of a divide there is between people who agree and disagree with this topic lol. I imagine it was like this back in the day too.