Conversions to Islam

[Das Boot]

In a few of my games the Spanish Kings ended up converting to Islam, and in my most recent one the King of France converted too.

Has this happened in anyone else's games?

[NorPhi]

You can invalidate a holy war against you by converting to the attackers religion. Not sure if the AI does this.

[Das Boot]

Originally posted by NorPhi:

You can invalidate a holy war against you by converting to the attackers religion. Not sure if the AI does this.

The game lets members of organized religions do this? Back in CK2 only unreformed pagans got that option, and it was precisely to prevent things like this.

[Illusion17]

Originally posted by Das Boot:

In a few of my games the Spanish Kings ended up converting to Islam, and in my most recent one the King of France converted too.

Has this happened in anyone else's games?

Yes, it's very bad in fact. The Holy Roman Empire and England both blew up due to their leaders converting to Islam. It resulted in so many holy wars that they couldn't keep up

[CrUsHeR]

Yes that is a normal diplomacy interaction, which anyone can take on the portrait of the attacker in a holy war. The attacker then still has the choice to refuse the submission, same like with the "Pay Tribute" CB in CK2.

The Ck3 version costs about 2 entire levels of devotion to the one who adopts the attacker's faith. Perhaps that is why the AI usually prefers to lose everything rather than converting.

[Morven]

The problem is Catholicism suffers fervour collapse from winning Holy Wars (vanilla punishes the victorious religion with fervour loss, and rewards the losing side with increased fervour) and a little from the sinful priest scandal overtriggering because of the large number of Catholic priests.

Conversion is partly caused by low fervour. The game does fervour checks between the current and potential conversion religion, so because Catholicism has collapsed to minimum fervour in vanilla, and almost every other religion has max fervour, any conversion event or test is loaded for the Catholic to convert away. So fixing how fervour is awarded will fix much of the problem of overtriggering of conversions away from Catholicism.

I've made some mods to fix the problem by inverting how fervour is awarded and preventing Catholicism suffering fervour collapse because it wins holy wars. With the Fervour Inversion mod the victor of a Holy War gets increases fervour, and the loser suffers fervour loss.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2229532952

Also a mod to nerf the priest scandal event so it requires 3 sinful traits to fire, rather than just 1, and only causes -5 fervour instead of -10 when it does.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2229532691

For Crusade realms, or realms with lots of foreign religion and culture provinces won through Holy Wars, the usual mechanism for the realm to collapse or its leader to convert is losing a peasant liberation rebellion that auto-launches straight after winning the crusade (and then relaunches over and over if they manage to win the first revolt). It's because there is a huge county opinion modifier for foreign culture, and false religion of around -50. Vanilla doesn't give any "Local's Pacified" opinion modifiers after winning a crusade, so all the new county's form a peasant liberation faction and revolt straight away with a very large army.

If the crusade realm wins the first peasant revolt, then vanilla only gives them a +20 county opinion modifier for "Local's Pacified". But because different culture and religion give around -50, the counties are still at -30, and so they immediately reform and relaunch the revolt, and get all new fresh armies when they do. This repeats over and over until the crusade realm ruler loses or coverts religion and/or culture.

The Fervour Inversion mod has a fix for crusade realms by giving them a +60 "Local's Pacified" opinion modifier for 40 years, enough to counter the different culture and religion penalties of around -50, and stop a peasant liberation war killing the crusade state in its infancy. For normal peasant wars caused by having lots of foreign culture and religion counties, I have another mod "Greater Peasant Pacification" that likewise applies a +60 "Local's Pacified" county opinion modifier for 20 years on winning a peasant war, so they no longer cycle revolt over and over, and can only occur once in a generation:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2229531835

[Hans]

Originally posted by Das Boot:

In a few of my games the Spanish Kings ended up converting to Islam, and in my most recent one the King of France converted too.

Has this happened in anyone else's games?

I've had similar results in my current game, but instead of Islam a bunch of rulers are converting to Astaru because I'm currently painting the map to expand my empire. I've gone back to declare war on neighbors only to find many of my former catholic enemies have already converted.

[NorPhi]

The fervour mechanics aren't bad per se, it's meant to prevent any religion from reaching that critical mass where they just take over everything. The bigger a faith, the harder it gets to keep people form drifting astray. This is actually quite ingenious and I wouldn't want them to invert that. However, the weights on fervour and religion in general are way too high. If I didn't luck out on the court priest, converting counties was just not possible most of the time. Similar thing with diplomatic interaction. Having a different faith can give a -80 modifier which seems a bit harsh. Why should someone with negative piety and three sinful traits think of me as filthy infidel if they obviously do not care about their religion that much.

[Das Boot]

In this game I was able to put Europe back into Christian hands. Not by crusades, but by abducting the local Sultans and making conversion to Insular Christianity a condition for their release. If the game's going to be cheap then so am I.

[ambi]

Originally posted by Morven:

The problem is Catholicism suffers fervour collapse from winning Holy Wars (vanilla punishes the victorious religion with fervour loss, and rewards the losing side with increased fervour) and a little from the sinful priest scandal overtriggering because of the large number of Catholic priests.

Conversion is partly caused by low fervour. The game does fervour checks between the current and potential conversion religion, so because Catholicism has collapsed to minimum fervour in vanilla, and almost every other religion has max fervour, any conversion event or test is loaded for the Catholic to convert away. So fixing how fervour is awarded will fix much of the problem of overtriggering of conversions away from Catholicism.

I've made some mods to fix the problem by inverting how fervour is awarded and preventing Catholicism suffering fervour collapse because it wins holy wars. With the Fervour Inversion mod the victor of a Holy War gets increases fervour, and the loser suffers fervour loss.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2229532952

Also a mod to nerf the priest scandal event so it requires 3 sinful traits to fire, rather than just 1, and only causes -5 fervour instead of -10 when it does.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2229532691

For Crusade realms, or realms with lots of foreign religion and culture provinces won through Holy Wars, the usual mechanism for the realm to collapse or its leader to convert is losing a peasant liberation rebellion that auto-launches straight after winning the crusade (and then relaunches over and over if they manage to win the first revolt). It's because there is a huge county opinion modifier for foreign culture, and false religion of around -50. Vanilla doesn't give any "Local's Pacified" opinion modifiers after winning a crusade, so all the new county's form a peasant liberation faction and revolt straight away with a very large army.

If the crusade realm wins the first peasant revolt, then vanilla only gives them a +20 county opinion modifier for "Local's Pacified". But because different culture and religion give around -50, the counties are still at -30, and so they immediately reform and relaunch the revolt, and get all new fresh armies when they do. This repeats over and over until the crusade realm ruler loses or coverts religion and/or culture.

The Fervour Inversion mod has a fix for crusade realms by giving them a +60 "Local's Pacified" opinion modifier for 40 years, enough to counter the different culture and religion penalties of around -50, and stop a peasant liberation war killing the crusade state in its infancy. For normal peasant wars caused by having lots of foreign culture and religion counties, I have another mod "Greater Peasant Pacification" that likewise applies a +60 "Local's Pacified" county opinion modifier for 20 years on winning a peasant war, so they no longer cycle revolt over and over, and can only occur once in a generation:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2229531835

+1

[VipreRX]

Originally posted by Morven:

The problem is Catholicism suffers fervour collapse from winning Holy Wars (vanilla punishes the victorious religion with fervour loss, and rewards the losing side with increased fervour)

Fervour isn't a reward or a punishment it's a reflection of how whipped into a frenzy a group is.

Get everyone all jazzed up for a fight (read Crusade) and when the fight's over everyone goes home, their fervour has decreased.

Flip that around and imagine a religious group who is attacked or feels like they're being attacked or oppressed, they lose their minds and the group's fervour goes through the roof. Don't have to look very far for examples even today.

The fervour system is a great add but it's probably in need of tweaking. Then again what isn't.

You know some decision or other action you could take to bump up your realm fervour slightly would be nice. Maybe some religious rite or celebration, or a mass execution of heretics.