Creating more duchy titles

[GodMan]

As an emperor I can now create about 15 more duchy titles than already there are in my empire. Is there any good reason to create them and hand out them to my vassals? From what I've seen when I create a new title late in the game, its hard to hand it out as the person that gets it, immidiately hates me and wants land that belongs to other vassals.

[jfoytek]

Duchy titles can be a good wildcard to hold in your back pocket for a bad succession...

You die your a weak 2 year old female your empire hates you their plotting to kill you...
Hand some duchy titles out to your strongest vassals and now you have made yourself new friends! That will have your back for 50 years.... And you might make it thru your regency as a 2 year old female hated by most in your empire accept the most important you gave some nice titles too.....

[GodMan]

Ok but, when I'm the emperor of byzantium with primogeniture and basically infinite gold? Will more duchy titles actually make my vassals stronger and more willing to rebel or will it weaken them as more titles would be given out to their children?

[Iskander]

At a certain point, you HAVE to give out duchy (and kingdom) titles, as you reach your vassal limit. Also take into account that your vassals can create duchy titles themselves, if they control the majority of the Duchy's de jure land. I've played into the 12th century as the Byzantine Emperor and have yet to have faced a vassal civil war, and I'm not even trying to keep them happy.

But I usually only create and give away titles after a succession and I need/want the prestige, or need to make some vassals happy (or bury them under a layer of vassal).

As for your problem of new Dukes hating you, because they want certain vassals: give them those vassals. So: create Duchy, give away title, check if they want certain vassals, give them those vassals = very happy Ducal vassals.

[GodMan]

Originally posted by Iskander:

At a certain point, you HAVE to give out duchy (and kingdom) titles, as you reach your vassal limit. Also take into account that your vassals can create duchy titles themselves, if they control the majority of the Duchy's de jure land. I've played into the 12th century as the Byzantine Emperor and have yet to have faced a vassal civil war, and I'm not even trying to keep them happy.

But I usually only create and give away titles after a succession and I need/want the prestige, or need to make some vassals happy (or bury them under a layer of vassal).

As for your problem of new Dukes hating you, because they want certain vassals: give them those vassals. So: create Duchy, give away title, check if they want certain vassals, give them those vassals = very happy Ducal vassals.

Yeah the problem is those vassals also have land in other parts of the country so it would not only give them the land they want, but also the land that others might want also.

[Iskander]

Originally posted by GodMan:

Originally posted by Iskander:

At a certain point, you HAVE to give out duchy (and kingdom) titles, as you reach your vassal limit. Also take into account that your vassals can create duchy titles themselves, if they control the majority of the Duchy's de jure land. I've played into the 12th century as the Byzantine Emperor and have yet to have faced a vassal civil war, and I'm not even trying to keep them happy.

But I usually only create and give away titles after a succession and I need/want the prestige, or need to make some vassals happy (or bury them under a layer of vassal).

As for your problem of new Dukes hating you, because they want certain vassals: give them those vassals. So: create Duchy, give away title, check if they want certain vassals, give them those vassals = very happy Ducal vassals.

Yeah the problem is those vassals also have land in other parts of the country so it would not only give them the land they want, but also the land that others might want also.

Give such double vassals to Duke A who wants his lands. If the double vassal also has lands that Dukes B and C want, then Dukes B and C will hate Duke A, instead of you.

[GodMan]

You have a point there, didn't think of that.

[Iskander]

Dive and Conquer, my child. Divide and Conquer. The more they hate each other, the less time they will have to plot against you.
EDIT: You can even do this deliberately. Gives titles in a messy manner, instead of sticking to De Jure borders.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by GodMan:

Ok but, when I'm the emperor of byzantium with primogeniture and basically infinite gold? Will more duchy titles actually make my vassals stronger and more willing to rebel or will it weaken them as more titles would be given out to their children?

a Duchy title has no real change on your vassal unless he was the rightful ruler in which case he will get more tax and levy's from those county's .....

Otherwise he will be the duke of lands he doesn't even own and will have zero effect on his power at all.....

As for hording titles you don't want to do that....

Less Vassals is Key....

If your a king you want 3-4 dukes with 2 or 3 duchys a piece...
If your an emperor you want 3-4 Kings with 2-3 kingdoms a piece....

The less vassals you have the easier it is to butter up....
Marry - for alliance
Give gifts
put on council

To keep your realm in check....

But if your an emperor and you have 9 kingdoms held bye 9 different people now you will have upset people you can't marry as you don't have enough daughters.... You can't sway because your swaying the other guy who has more troops... Giving gifts will bankrupt you.... And obviously you only have 4 council seats to give!!!

[archonsod]

Give them to unlanded members of your dynasty. Your family renown accumulates from members of your family house (and cadet branches) that hold noble titles, the more of them you have, the better the income.
The thing to note when creating new titles is that it won't add vassals who also own lands outside of the Dejure title. Given the massive relationship boost granting titles gives, if you're ending up with vassals hating you after giving them a title it's likely because you (or another vassal) have a direct vassal that they consider DeJure theirs. When granting the title it's worth checking the territory to ensure all the vassals have transferred over.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by archonsod:

Give them to unlanded members of your dynasty. Your family renown accumulates from members of your family house (and cadet branches) that hold noble titles, the more of them you have, the better the income.
The thing to note when creating new titles is that it won't add vassals who also own lands outside of the Dejure title. Given the massive relationship boost granting titles gives, if you're ending up with vassals hating you after giving them a title it's likely because you (or another vassal) have a direct vassal that they consider DeJure theirs. When granting the title it's worth checking the territory to ensure all the vassals have transferred over.

If they are NOT your vassal then your advice is sound...

Only the top most liege of your dynasty earns Renown... So if your a king all those dukes of your dynasty earn 0, Nada, Nothing....

If they were independant dukes and you were not their Lord then your right your dynasty would earn renown for each of them!

[CrUsHeR]

You need to differentiate:

1) Creating Duchies for lands you do NOT hold yourself

2) Creating Duchies for lands you DO hold

With 1, your vassals will create these titles themselves, assuming you are at least a King.
You save the money, miss out on prestige, and have no control over who gets this title. If an already strong duke creates this, he will become even more powerful.

With 2, under Partition Law, if you do NOT create all possible duchies for the lands you hold, then you will simply lose more land than necessary. Like your primary heir only gets the capital county, and his younger brothers get all other counties. Because the game weights the tiers differently, having a second duchy would make the distribution more even.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

Only the top most liege of your dynasty earns Renown... So if your a king all those dukes of your dynasty earn 0, Nada, Nothing....

While that is true, having Dukes and Kings of your dynasty as vassals also leads to them marrying their children to foreign rulers of various tiers.

Example a distant kinsman Duke's daughter married to a King in another realm gives 0.8 renown. Being an independent King yourself gives 1.0

So this quickly spirals up to 12 / month or more, depending on how fertile your vassals are and how many rulers of appropriate ranks are available for marriage.

[jfoytek]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by jfoytek:

Only the top most liege of your dynasty earns Renown... So if your a king all those dukes of your dynasty earn 0, Nada, Nothing....

While that is true, having Dukes and Kings of your dynasty as vassals also leads to them marrying their children to foreign rulers of various tiers.

Example a distant kinsman Duke's daughter married to a King in another realm gives 0.8 renown. Being an independent King yourself gives 1.0

So this quickly spirals up to 12 / month or more, depending on how fertile your vassals are and how many rulers of appropriate ranks are available for marriage.

Sure your dynasty kings or dukes could luck into a marraige that does indeed end up providing renown but that's a very different situation then saying that you should hand out the duke titles to your dynasty because you will get more renown.... this imply's that your dynasty duke is going to generate renown... Which is not true unless he is independant....

Lets try to keep things clear and not mislead accidentaly or intentionally.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by jfoytek:

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

While that is true, having Dukes and Kings of your dynasty as vassals also leads to them marrying their children to foreign rulers of various tiers.

Example a distant kinsman Duke's daughter married to a King in another realm gives 0.8 renown. Being an independent King yourself gives 1.0

So this quickly spirals up to 12 / month or more, depending on how fertile your vassals are and how many rulers of appropriate ranks are available for marriage.

Sure your dynasty kings or dukes could luck into a marraige that does indeed end up providing renown but that's a very different situation then saying that you should hand out the duke titles to your dynasty because you will get more renown.... this imply's that your dynasty duke is going to generate renown... Which is not true unless he is independant....

Lets try to keep things clear and not mislead accidentaly or intentionally.

They don't "luck" into those marriages, they always do them for alliance power.

Every court of your dynasty does produce new dynasty members, independent from you. That is called exponential growth.
The higher their rank, the better the prospects for marriage into foreign courts.

Also obviously, marriage renown does not require the partner to be independent.