Gay Marriage in CK3

[Athmet]

Hello everyone,

As there is a lot of discussion around this, I wanted to try to give a quick summary around that feature coming with the Royal Court:

> Does PDX believe gay marriage to be historically accurate ?
- No they do not, that is the reason why this feature is turned off by default and can be turned on as an option if you want it

> Why implementing it in the first place then ?
- Some players (apologies, cannot quantify them) requested that feature

> What if I believe it took a lot of resource to implement it in detriment of other features that would be better (imo) for the game ?
- PDX dev responded on this by stating it was rather easy to implement (quote[forum.paradoxplaza.com])

> What if I do not like that feature and do not want it in my game ?
- Since it is turned off by default, you will never have it in your game if you do not turn it on
- Additionally, PDX made sure that if anyone else turn it on in their own game, it will not impact your game and it will still be off for your game

> What if I do not like thinking other people can turn it on in their own game ?
- That will be an issue that you alone can deal with in any way you want

> What if that goes against my X belief ?
- Not sure what to say, do not buy it then ?

> What is this "AgeNdA" I am hearing of ?
- So far, no one has clearly explained what this agenda was about
- However it is clear this agenda is living rent free in the head of a lot of people online

Hopefully, this will help anyone with question around that optional feature.

[Bearji 🌱]

Historical game where Ireland conquers the world.

[SaLaĐiN]

Publicado originalmente por Ludicus:

Publicado originalmente por justin579:

"heteronormative " is one of the most cringe words ever.

You cannot understand homophobia without understanding heteronormativity. It's a very interesting article,

"As Adrienne Shaw pointed out in her pioneering article about LGBT content in video games, most video games are, either implicitly or explicitly, heteronormative (Shaw, 2009).
Their narratives rarely include non-heterosexual characters and they usually presume a straight male consumer. While the game industry tends to overlook its LGBT audience, some gaming communities are even seen as homophobic, for example due to their extensive use of words like “gay” or “♥♥♥” to describe weaker players (Sliwinski, 2007; Shaw, 2009).

(...)

LGBT Player and the Heteronormative Game Culture

Sexuality is an integral part of video games, as they explicitly or implicitly represent the gender system and social norms (Consalvo, 2003). The fact that most games are heteronormative is neither a coincidence, nor a random choice. According to Adrienne Rich (2004), we have to think about heterosexuality as a political institution, which is involved (consciously or not) in maintaining the status quo. Discursive power of heteronormativity lies primarily in the fact that heterosexuality is almost invisible; it is defined as a default version of sexuality. Heterosexuality, contrary to homosexuality, does not need any physical evidence, it is defined as a “regular” part of life.

(...)

At the level of content, a video game can be understood as a cultural artifact which tends to reproduce broader patterns of the gender system. Therefore, the fictional content of video games contains stereotypical romances within their plots, often marked with a vivid hierarchization of gender relations.

(...)

Representation of the LGBT community, if it ever occurs, is under constant pressure to correspond to heteronormative patterns, and also incorporates conventions inherited from media narratives. Although developers may try to make the game world more heterogeneous with the creation of LGBT characters, these can be mere caricatures of homosexuality, as we will show later. Several games have tackled subjects related to LGBT communities, such as sex change in dys4ia (2012) or coming out in Gone Home (2013). However, these games have not reached the impact that “queer cinema” has had on film (Benshoff & Griffin, 2004; Shaw, 2009).

The push to include LGBT content is being undermined by the fact that video game culture is generally not recognized as a part of gay culture (Taylor, 2002). Some gay players explicitly identify as “gaymers” (gay and gamer) and gather on dedicated discussion forums (Shaw, 2009); according to Cassell and Jenkins (2000), queer playing can even be seen as one of the first impulses for a real coming-out. But as Greer points out, LGBT players do not necessarily feel the need to “play queer” (Greer 2013). One has to ask, moreover, whether LGBT players even want to be appealed to as a target audience.

Creating games specifically for gay players might result in their ghettoization, which has to some extent happened with “girl gamers”. As Taylor (2002) notes, “like girl gamers before them, the homosexual market for games is being appealed to as gays, not as gamers” (p. 238). Therefore, in order for more video games with queer characters to be created, the existence of motivated producers (who identify themselves as homosexuals or at least not homophobic) is deemed especially important (Shaw, 2009). They must also, like David Gaider, believe that there is an audience for this content (Taylor, 2002). So far, there has been no consensus whether developers should create queer emancipatory games and create a video game alternative of “queer cinema”, or to create games “for everyone”, with (optional) queer characters or mechanics included.

Potential for Queer Playing: Affordances and Strategies

In this section, we present a theoretical framework that will allow us to outline and categorize a number of hypothetical queer uses of video games, which will be later compared to our empirical findings. We shall build on existing literature about gender and queer elements in both the game as an artifact, and in player practice. In the context of video games, the concept of queer playing can describe a variety of uses, identities and identifications. In this article, we will focus on a specific subset of uses, identities and identifications –those which are performed by LGBT players who challenge heteronormative game culture by reading orperforming in-game characters as gays or lesbians. These are not the only “queer” uses of games, but the contrast with heteronormativity makes them illustrative of “queer” engagement with games in general.

(...)


In this article, we will focus on queer reading and queer performance, both of which we consider elements of queer playing. We will then identify how these hypothetical uses of the game are realized as specific and situated strategies by LGBT players and under what conditions these strategies are applied. One of the basic questions of our research is the extent to which a player actually takes advantage of the potential for queer playing strategies, and what influences his or her decisions to do so.

(...)

Conclusions and Discussion

In the introduction, we warned against unfounded assumptions about LGBT audiences. The analysis has indeed shown that these players are not a homogeneous group that jubilantly accepts LGBT content in role-playing games. Even among LGBT players, queer performance (either stylized, or the performance of role-playing) may not be the default playing strategy. While players appreciate the inclusion of gay or lesbian characters and romances, and they have all, to some extent, played with or through them, this is usually not the reason for picking a particular character or even the game. Looking closely at the material, we have been able to discern relationships between the reasons not use queer strategies and the broader socio-cultural context.
Out of the three queer playing strategies we identified, imaginative play is the one that is most readily accepted by our interviewees. Its familiarity and acceptance may stem from the fact that it is not specific only to the medium of video games. It takes the least amount of physical effort and remains mostly in the private world of one’s imagination. But when such imagination goes public in the form of slash fiction, its reception can be colored by the feeling that slash contradicts the content of the game. The second strategy is stylized
performance, through which players deliberately perform stereotypical depiction of gays (pink color or feminine voice) and thus deconstruct these cultural patterns. Once again, the interviewees feel more comfortable doing this in single-player games like Mass Effect than publicly in online multiplayer games. The third strategy is role-playing of an LGBT character. While some have employed it, the players noted that sexuality was not an important variable for them, and they put much more emphasis on story and portrayal of the characters, and not on whether they are gay or not. They tend not to play a character of the opposite sex, contradictory to what Vorderer & Bryant’s research might suggest (Vorderer & Bryant, 2012).
Our findings support Greer’s claim that designers “who seek to allow gamers to ‘play queer’ – or merely to play as anything other than heterosexual” face complex challenges (Greer, 2013, p. 17). LGBT players’ reluctance to play queerly can be partially ascribed to the fact that while playing games, they consider themselves “players” rather than “gay players”. They accept the genre conventions and game design norms that are still very much determined by the heteronormative discourse. They have not learnt to look for LGBT content, or rather, they have learnt not to look for it in games.

As self-proclaimed outsiders of video game culture, some of them might have even missed the ongoing public debate about these topics. They criticize “hidden” and “invisible” homosexuality, but when a gay character is made an integral part of the story in Dragon Age II, this is met with much more enthusiasm. The relationship between (non-)queer playing and player identity seems to be quite significant. The interviewees see their gay identities and player identities as almost completely disjunct; they do not feel any need to associate the two, although they consider both of them important. This may be the reason why some of them do not seek sexuality in video games. For these players, games have not yet become a medium which could in any way help them with the (re)definition of their sexual identity. This is to some extent caused by the medium’s aforementioned strong heteronormative tendencies, fortified by the overwhelming indifference of the game industry and by the hostility of some members of game communities towards the LGBT minority (Shaw, 2009).
There is one exception – the player Peter, for whom the process of coming out was connected to a temporary change in gameplay strategies. His example may provide some support for Cassell and Jenkins’ claim that games can help during the process of coming out (Cassell & Jenkins, 2000). BioWare’s efforts to be inclusive were not met with unanimous excitement, but rather with moderate approval. Each LGBT player approached the BioWare titles differently. One dressed his Shepard in pink, another one played a heterosexual Commander. One was disappointed by the stereotypical gay elf in Dragon Age: Origins, yet another one, Alex, went full on with queer playing, recounting: “In Dragon Age, I just created a handsome guy and tried to hook up with somebody. I didn’t communicate with women, I wanted them to be nothing more than my friends.”

In general, the interviewees see the inclusion of gay characters both as an important step for the LGBT community and as a tool in the fight against homophobia. Echoing Shaw’s (2009) conclusions, they agree that games have a lot of potential as outlets to express and understand one’s sexuality, but this potential is still underutilized. We have also observed a certain discomfort about games becoming oversexualized and about them presenting homosexuality as something out of the ordinary. Inserting bits and pieces of LGBT content is seen as commendable, but a deeper integration of well-written non-stereotypical LGBT narratives could prove more valuable to the community. This article is based on a small-scale qualitative research focusing on a mere subset of potential queer playing strategies, and we can therefore make no generalizations.

On the other hand, its outcomes can lay foundations for further inquiry. One could undertake survey based quantitative studies to learn about the prevalence of queer playing strategies or approaches to gaming in various regional or cultural contexts. This would be of use to both academia and the proponents of inclusiveness. Games scholarship would also benefit from qualitative, and later quantitative, research on how other groups of players, such as lesbians, transgender people or heterosexuals experience sexuality in video games and how their approaches to play are shaped by heteronormativity. All in all, the diversity of players, player communities, and player strategies – which this article has hinted at – promises ample possibilities for further research"

That article is one big heterodox sociology meme and contradicts decades of psychology and biology research and has no base in science.

The dichotomy of sex and gender and pure social construction of gender is unscientific nonsense and it is just depressing to hear it over and over again. There are sex based differences in female and men which are not socially constructed and are caused for example by hormones. As studies have showed, monkeys show the same sex based preferences for toys as humans and the social influence here is lacking. Other studies show that the "stereotypical behaviour" attributed to women and men is influenced by the level of hormones we have been exposed to when in uterus. So boom, there goes pseudo science called sociology.

Yes,a majority of humans is hetero by default and the science is "settled" that sexual orientation of an individual cannot be changed except a few extreme cases such as traumatic events etc.
And if anyone tells me the opposite, well, gg, you just made some groups of extreme Christians right about the conversion therapy.


Nothing but unscientific gibberish and nonsense from heterodox feminist sociology school which are for some reason taken seriously because muh politics, which actually isn't surprising at all if I keep thinking about it, because it was just like 60 years ago when racism was legal in USA or some countries in Europe still not allowed women to vote. So yeah, the world never changes.

[pauloandrade224]

Publicado originalmente por Zoopy:

Publicado originalmente por pauloandrade224:

Fun fact people do have the right to judge people s behaviour opinions tastes ect...

thats why we are a democracy after all

Of course, but those opinions are not protected from criticism either.

Publicado originalmente por Bruce Wayne:

just a next step to



+1

I actually hope it does happen. The butthurt on these forums would be immense.

truth

[SavageWhiteDude]

I accidentally had sex with my sister in my first play through so... whatever.

[SpiffyGonzales]

Publicado originalmente por SaLaĐiN:

Publicado originalmente por Ludicus:

You cannot understand homophobia without understanding heteronormativity. It's a very interesting article,

"As Adrienne Shaw pointed out in her pioneering article about LGBT content in video games, most video games are, either implicitly or explicitly, heteronormative (Shaw, 2009).
Their narratives rarely include non-heterosexual characters and they usually presume a straight male consumer. While the game industry tends to overlook its LGBT audience, some gaming communities are even seen as homophobic, for example due to their extensive use of words like “gay” or “♥♥♥” to describe weaker players (Sliwinski, 2007; Shaw, 2009).

(...)

LGBT Player and the Heteronormative Game Culture

Sexuality is an integral part of video games, as they explicitly or implicitly represent the gender system and social norms (Consalvo, 2003). The fact that most games are heteronormative is neither a coincidence, nor a random choice. According to Adrienne Rich (2004), we have to think about heterosexuality as a political institution, which is involved (consciously or not) in maintaining the status quo. Discursive power of heteronormativity lies primarily in the fact that heterosexuality is almost invisible; it is defined as a default version of sexuality. Heterosexuality, contrary to homosexuality, does not need any physical evidence, it is defined as a “regular” part of life.

(...)

At the level of content, a video game can be understood as a cultural artifact which tends to reproduce broader patterns of the gender system. Therefore, the fictional content of video games contains stereotypical romances within their plots, often marked with a vivid hierarchization of gender relations.

(...)

Representation of the LGBT community, if it ever occurs, is under constant pressure to correspond to heteronormative patterns, and also incorporates conventions inherited from media narratives. Although developers may try to make the game world more heterogeneous with the creation of LGBT characters, these can be mere caricatures of homosexuality, as we will show later. Several games have tackled subjects related to LGBT communities, such as sex change in dys4ia (2012) or coming out in Gone Home (2013). However, these games have not reached the impact that “queer cinema” has had on film (Benshoff & Griffin, 2004; Shaw, 2009).

The push to include LGBT content is being undermined by the fact that video game culture is generally not recognized as a part of gay culture (Taylor, 2002). Some gay players explicitly identify as “gaymers” (gay and gamer) and gather on dedicated discussion forums (Shaw, 2009); according to Cassell and Jenkins (2000), queer playing can even be seen as one of the first impulses for a real coming-out. But as Greer points out, LGBT players do not necessarily feel the need to “play queer” (Greer 2013). One has to ask, moreover, whether LGBT players even want to be appealed to as a target audience.

Creating games specifically for gay players might result in their ghettoization, which has to some extent happened with “girl gamers”. As Taylor (2002) notes, “like girl gamers before them, the homosexual market for games is being appealed to as gays, not as gamers” (p. 238). Therefore, in order for more video games with queer characters to be created, the existence of motivated producers (who identify themselves as homosexuals or at least not homophobic) is deemed especially important (Shaw, 2009). They must also, like David Gaider, believe that there is an audience for this content (Taylor, 2002). So far, there has been no consensus whether developers should create queer emancipatory games and create a video game alternative of “queer cinema”, or to create games “for everyone”, with (optional) queer characters or mechanics included.

Potential for Queer Playing: Affordances and Strategies

In this section, we present a theoretical framework that will allow us to outline and categorize a number of hypothetical queer uses of video games, which will be later compared to our empirical findings. We shall build on existing literature about gender and queer elements in both the game as an artifact, and in player practice. In the context of video games, the concept of queer playing can describe a variety of uses, identities and identifications. In this article, we will focus on a specific subset of uses, identities and identifications –those which are performed by LGBT players who challenge heteronormative game culture by reading orperforming in-game characters as gays or lesbians. These are not the only “queer” uses of games, but the contrast with heteronormativity makes them illustrative of “queer” engagement with games in general.

(...)


In this article, we will focus on queer reading and queer performance, both of which we consider elements of queer playing. We will then identify how these hypothetical uses of the game are realized as specific and situated strategies by LGBT players and under what conditions these strategies are applied. One of the basic questions of our research is the extent to which a player actually takes advantage of the potential for queer playing strategies, and what influences his or her decisions to do so.

(...)

Conclusions and Discussion

In the introduction, we warned against unfounded assumptions about LGBT audiences. The analysis has indeed shown that these players are not a homogeneous group that jubilantly accepts LGBT content in role-playing games. Even among LGBT players, queer performance (either stylized, or the performance of role-playing) may not be the default playing strategy. While players appreciate the inclusion of gay or lesbian characters and romances, and they have all, to some extent, played with or through them, this is usually not the reason for picking a particular character or even the game. Looking closely at the material, we have been able to discern relationships between the reasons not use queer strategies and the broader socio-cultural context.
Out of the three queer playing strategies we identified, imaginative play is the one that is most readily accepted by our interviewees. Its familiarity and acceptance may stem from the fact that it is not specific only to the medium of video games. It takes the least amount of physical effort and remains mostly in the private world of one’s imagination. But when such imagination goes public in the form of slash fiction, its reception can be colored by the feeling that slash contradicts the content of the game. The second strategy is stylized
performance, through which players deliberately perform stereotypical depiction of gays (pink color or feminine voice) and thus deconstruct these cultural patterns. Once again, the interviewees feel more comfortable doing this in single-player games like Mass Effect than publicly in online multiplayer games. The third strategy is role-playing of an LGBT character. While some have employed it, the players noted that sexuality was not an important variable for them, and they put much more emphasis on story and portrayal of the characters, and not on whether they are gay or not. They tend not to play a character of the opposite sex, contradictory to what Vorderer & Bryant’s research might suggest (Vorderer & Bryant, 2012).
Our findings support Greer’s claim that designers “who seek to allow gamers to ‘play queer’ – or merely to play as anything other than heterosexual” face complex challenges (Greer, 2013, p. 17). LGBT players’ reluctance to play queerly can be partially ascribed to the fact that while playing games, they consider themselves “players” rather than “gay players”. They accept the genre conventions and game design norms that are still very much determined by the heteronormative discourse. They have not learnt to look for LGBT content, or rather, they have learnt not to look for it in games.

As self-proclaimed outsiders of video game culture, some of them might have even missed the ongoing public debate about these topics. They criticize “hidden” and “invisible” homosexuality, but when a gay character is made an integral part of the story in Dragon Age II, this is met with much more enthusiasm. The relationship between (non-)queer playing and player identity seems to be quite significant. The interviewees see their gay identities and player identities as almost completely disjunct; they do not feel any need to associate the two, although they consider both of them important. This may be the reason why some of them do not seek sexuality in video games. For these players, games have not yet become a medium which could in any way help them with the (re)definition of their sexual identity. This is to some extent caused by the medium’s aforementioned strong heteronormative tendencies, fortified by the overwhelming indifference of the game industry and by the hostility of some members of game communities towards the LGBT minority (Shaw, 2009).
There is one exception – the player Peter, for whom the process of coming out was connected to a temporary change in gameplay strategies. His example may provide some support for Cassell and Jenkins’ claim that games can help during the process of coming out (Cassell & Jenkins, 2000). BioWare’s efforts to be inclusive were not met with unanimous excitement, but rather with moderate approval. Each LGBT player approached the BioWare titles differently. One dressed his Shepard in pink, another one played a heterosexual Commander. One was disappointed by the stereotypical gay elf in Dragon Age: Origins, yet another one, Alex, went full on with queer playing, recounting: “In Dragon Age, I just created a handsome guy and tried to hook up with somebody. I didn’t communicate with women, I wanted them to be nothing more than my friends.”

In general, the interviewees see the inclusion of gay characters both as an important step for the LGBT community and as a tool in the fight against homophobia. Echoing Shaw’s (2009) conclusions, they agree that games have a lot of potential as outlets to express and understand one’s sexuality, but this potential is still underutilized. We have also observed a certain discomfort about games becoming oversexualized and about them presenting homosexuality as something out of the ordinary. Inserting bits and pieces of LGBT content is seen as commendable, but a deeper integration of well-written non-stereotypical LGBT narratives could prove more valuable to the community. This article is based on a small-scale qualitative research focusing on a mere subset of potential queer playing strategies, and we can therefore make no generalizations.

On the other hand, its outcomes can lay foundations for further inquiry. One could undertake survey based quantitative studies to learn about the prevalence of queer playing strategies or approaches to gaming in various regional or cultural contexts. This would be of use to both academia and the proponents of inclusiveness. Games scholarship would also benefit from qualitative, and later quantitative, research on how other groups of players, such as lesbians, transgender people or heterosexuals experience sexuality in video games and how their approaches to play are shaped by heteronormativity. All in all, the diversity of players, player communities, and player strategies – which this article has hinted at – promises ample possibilities for further research"

That article is one big heterodox sociology meme and contradicts decades of psychology and biology research and has no base in science.

The dichotomy of sex and gender and pure social construction of gender is unscientific nonsense and it is just depressing to hear it over and over again. There are sex based differences in female and men which are not socially constructed and are caused for example by hormones. As studies have showed, monkeys show the same sex based preferences for toys as humans and the social influence here is lacking. Other studies show that the "stereotypical behaviour" attributed to women and men is influenced by the level of hormones we have been exposed to when in uterus. So boom, there goes pseudo science called sociology.

Yes,a majority of humans is hetero by default and the science is "settled" that sexual orientation of an individual cannot be changed except a few extreme cases such as traumatic events etc.
And if anyone tells me the opposite, well, gg, you just made some groups of extreme Christians right about the conversion therapy.


Nothing but unscientific gibberish and nonsense from heterodox feminist sociology school which are for some reason taken seriously because muh politics, which actually isn't surprising at all if I keep thinking about it, because it was just like 60 years ago when racism was legal in USA or some countries in Europe still not allowed women to vote. So yeah, the world never changes.

absolutely unpopular opinion here, but I AM one of the guys that doesnt support the sausage on sausage or taco on taco fests these days.
regardless, if it's a historically based game and it's an option (which is turned off by default) I don't see the problem. Just... turn it off.

Rgardless, I agree with this post. For the most part anyways. Sociology seems like it could be a pretty promising field for humanity... ya know... if the people who studied under that field were actually focused on studying human interaction rather than trying to go all frued with it and pretend every handshake and yawn is definitive proof that everyone wants to mate with every living and non living thing. Think philosophy. Like yes its not exactly science, sure. But it does have very real, very practical uses. It helps us to think logically, to develop helpful lifestyles, as well as to find purpose and reason. However if the majority of philosophers today were indoctrinating people into believing that there is definitive proof that the moon is made of swiss cheese based on un scientific ideas based in philosophy... well that would be a problem wouldnt it?

I think of sociology in that same sense.

[Zoopy]

Have either of you actually ever studied sociology or are you basing your opinions off of the limited interactions you've had with it in online spaces? Because I took Sociology for two semesters and we didn't cover anything that you're complaining about. We covered topics like how media influences growing children and the privatisation of prisons.

Sociology is a very broad discipline.

[SpiffyGonzales]

Publicado originalmente por Zoopy:

Have either of you actually ever studied sociology or are you basing your opinions off of the limited interactions you've had with it in online spaces? Because I took Sociology for two semesters and we didn't cover anything that you're complaining about. We covered topics like how media influences growing children and the privatisation of prisons.

Sociology is a very broad discipline.

I have not personally no. However I do know a few people who have and a couple of them have used their degrees in sociology as sort of an appeal to their own authority. So i heavily doubt that at least some of them are doing that.
Also we studied privitisation of prisons and hoe media influences children in like 9th grade.

Also I was actually arguing against his points by stating that it has some merits despite the large numbers of people who try to use it to spread a message.

[Min]

I would like if CK3 would have game tag in shop page - fantasy, then i wouldn't mind these changes at all

[Zoopy]

Publicado originalmente por Min:

I would like if CK3 would have game tag in shop page - fantasy, then i wouldn't mind these changes at all

Those tags are set by users, not the developers.

Besides, CK games have always been historical fiction. Sorry it took them adding same-sex marriage for you to realise this.

[Min]

Publicado originalmente por Zoopy:

Publicado originalmente por Min:

I would like if CK3 would have game tag in shop page - fantasy, then i wouldn't mind these changes at all

Those tags are set by users, not the developers.

Besides, CK games have always been historical fiction. Sorry it took them adding same-sex marriage for you to realise this.

There are so many people who don't play ck3 anymore and when they played it there was no such nonsense like now , so these tags are not accurate at all, so developers should take actions and do it themselves

[Zoopy]

Publicado originalmente por Min:

Publicado originalmente por Zoopy:

Those tags are set by users, not the developers.

Besides, CK games have always been historical fiction. Sorry it took them adding same-sex marriage for you to realise this.

There are so many people who don't play ck3 anymore and when they played it there was no such nonsense like now , so these tags are not accurate at all, so developers should take actions and do it themselves

You mean there were no optional features that were disabled by default and that you have to specifically enable to see in-game?

If it bothers you that much, just don't enable it and then you won't even need to know that it's there. It's not that deep. Did you complain this much when they added optional supernatural elements to CK2?

[Min]

I'm just saying all this fuss would drop if they admit ck3 genre is fantasy not only because of these marriages but other stuff which was impossible in medieval ages and they now implemented in game, but now they pushing it like it was real stuff and that's why many people angry for

[Athmet]

Publicado originalmente por Min:

I'm just saying all this fuss would drop if they admit ck3 genre is fantasy not only because of these marriages but other stuff which was impossible in medieval ages and they now implemented in game, but now they pushing it like it was real stuff and that's why many people angry for

How do you mean "like it was real stuff" ? Where did they say that ? On the contrary, the option is disabled by default because it is not historically accurate. You do not make sense.

[Your Resident Scene Girl]

People who say it's unscientific for there to be a difference between biological sex and gender doesn't understand how the scientific method works. Scientific consensus evolves over time, and the consensus of ideas changes over time. One good example is that the scientific consensus for primate evolution was that new world/old world monkeys and apes were descended from lemurs, lorises, and the likes. Though we eventually found out that wasn't true, and that lemurs share a common ancestor that they diverged from future taxons of primates such as monkeys and apes. The reason why people still think saying that gender and biological sex is different is unscientific is because of outdated scientific consensus. Just know that back before the 90s (or maybe 2000s) most people didn't try to study gender dysphoria, homosexuality, or other things related to lgbt, because it was taboo and it was forbidden.

Now that we have the shackles released from being taboo, we can actually study the behavior and social aspects of people who don't comply with their assigned sex. I'm sorry but the modern scientific consensus is that gender is different from biological sex, sure it may of been considered the same thing back in the day, but words can change and evolve. And the same people who say gender indentities is non-scientific are a lot of the times the same people who deny other scientific truths such as global warming or even the idea of herd immunity and why vaccines are important. Viruses mutate if you don't a majority of people vaccinated. That is why we are getting more dangerous variants of COVID-19 because of the lack of herd immunity, that let's it mutate.

And no you cannot be a skeptic of climate change or covid-19 since that is an oxymoron. It is contradictory to be a skeptic of things that are scientifically proven. That makes you a denier of certain facts that are already established. By the way I have been studying biology for a long time so I know how vaccines are important. But some people rather listen to certain politicians who have no experience in any scientific field, than someone who actually has studied in a scientific field.

[pauloandrade224]

Oh can a mod block this already its so off track from the original post s post right?