Why actually conquer?

[metafa]

I mean this is not even a serious question almost, conquering is fun. But why actually do it? I need to preserve my dynasty, what does it matter if my land stays small e.g. I own one or two duchies. Not from a fun/gameplay perspective spoken, and I know from conquering you get more powerful and more money but just for the goal of being able to continue the game, high fertility and a lot of offspring is also possible without conquering, no? I'm not a very experienced player, so let me know, thanks.

[Ares]

I believe the traditional objective in this game should be to make your dynasty prosper and become dominant. You know, to compare yourself with the biggest names of these times such as Karling, Habsburg, Ragnar etc

But then this game is a sandbox and the only objective is what you want it to be.

I would say surviving as a dynasty is a condition and not a goal, it's not a 'you win if it happens' but rather a 'you lose if you don't'.

[Sheerpwnage]

You are completely right in thinking that this game is about your dynasty and its legacy. Considering the long game is important. Sometimes conquering involves that.

For instance, a neighboring duchy could be too strong for you to take on by yourself. But now its involved in a costly war and may be an opportunity for you to take advantage and expand your lands.

There's nothing wrong with drilling and chilling either. Developing your held lands is important. The bonuses buildings provide don't look like much at first glance, but they really add up once you get established.

CK3 is not as much of a map painter as other Paradox games. Yes, warfare is an aspect of the game, but its not the primary aspect. Overall, the game is about your family. If you want to maintain and rule a small duchy, but produce a huge family you can do that. Or you can on world conquest and produce genetically superior dwarfs. Or a viking adventure to India. That's what makes this game so fun. The only limit is your imagination.

[metafa]

Thanks. My question is do I have disadvantages when staying small? Can the game actually be upended by me losing all land to someone else by conquest?

[Sheerpwnage]

Originally posted by metafa:

Thanks. My question is do I have disadvantages when staying small? Can the game actually be upended by me losing all land to someone else by conquest?

Being small will mean smaller armies, so it would be difficult to defend against a larger invasion and could lead to game over. But when you're smaller, you're typically a vassal to a duke/king/emperor. Your liege is responsible for your defense. Of course, if you think you can do a better job you can always dispose them

[metafa]

Originally posted by Sheerpwnage:

Being small will mean smaller armies, so it would be difficult to defend against a larger invasion and could lead to game over. But when you're smaller, you're typically a vassal to a duke/king/emperor. Your liege is responsible for your defense. Of course, if you think you can do a better job you can always dispose them :crusader_helmet:

Ah ok, thx didn't know that it can be game over, I just imagine, if I have only one county and another vassal of my liege conquers that county from me, SHOULD be game over right? I mean I wouldn't know what could logically happen to keep the game going. I think that's a positive aspect actually if that's the case. Conquering should be a necessity to some degree.

[CrUsHeR]

1) Ck3 directly forces you to expand aggressively, because everyone has to use the (ahistorical) Partition laws until the 13th century. Once you run out of titles for extra sons, you simply lose land from your domain.
In turn, forging claims is now very cheap, fast and reliable - this process could take a lifetime in CK2 with uncertain success. And there are other ways to expand, like using your powers as dynasty head to claim titles held by foreign dynasty members. Paradox deliberately "militarized" the game.


2) If you don't grow big, others will. So if you are not an independent ruler with the greatest military power in your region, the others will simply take what they want from you. That is how the world used to work until the establishment of the United Nations after WW2.

[DavesBarbaricCookie]

if you want to stay small, conquer surrounding douchies when possible, give them to family members and then give them independence, that way you spread your dynasty, stay small, but gain more allies

[Heraclius Caesar]

Originally posted by metafa:

I mean this is not even a serious question almost, conquering is fun. But why actually do it? I need to preserve my dynasty, what does it matter if my land stays small e.g. I own one or two duchies. Not from a fun/gameplay perspective spoken, and I know from conquering you get more powerful and more money but just for the goal of being able to continue the game, high fertility and a lot of offspring is also possible without conquering, no? I'm not a very experienced player, so let me know, thanks.

Tbh you don't have to raise your army and conquer at all if you don't want to. You can fairly easily come to rule the whole in game world through strategic use of diplomacy, marriage, and intrigue, without ever going to war.

On the other hand though, if you intentionally choose to stay small, if you don't expand at all (through military or other means) then don't get upset or surprised if you get conquered and get a game over. The AI in this game is very likely to attack you if they think you're weak enough, and the AI in this game very much enjoys fabricating claims on your titles.

Another issue with staying small like how you describe is that other rulers, particularly higher ranking rulers than you, will be less likely to accept your marriage proposals. If you can't secure marriage alliances or get your children on other thrones, you'll basically be like poor Lord Frey from GoT - an old guy with a little castle and far too many children, most of which he can't find noble marriages for.

The best thing you can do if you want to play "small" is to get yourself a moderately sized kingdom, develop your lands and recruit men-at-arms. If you have a decent sized army and some allies, the AI won't come after you and you can just do your thing, ball out, be a king, hunt and feast with your vassals and seduce their wives all the while, etc.

[snuggleform]

If you only care about surviving to the natural end date of 1453, then there's really no need to do much of anything. You just have to hide somewhere and be a vassal to someone who will protect you, you don't have to conquer anything, you never have to go beyond being a count, etc. The one possible threat is if a strong neighbor declares a holy war or otherwise tries to unland you and your liege is distracted or not strong enough to protect you. And of course you do need to make sure you're marrying enough that there are enough heirs.

[Fizzypop]

The game kind of punishes you if you don't expand as over time CP will just make you weaker the more kids you have. I really wish the gameplay was more forgiving when it comes to lower titles. I understand why it's not for higher titles, but it can make it difficult to stay a lowly vassal family.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by Fizzypop:

The game kind of punishes you if you don't expand as over time CP will just make you weaker the more kids you have. I really wish the gameplay was more forgiving when it comes to lower titles. I understand why it's not for higher titles, but it can make it difficult to stay a lowly vassal family.

cp?

the game punishes you for expanding too much as well (you'll see what a nightmare it is to become head of the HRE or byzantine if you took it over late game)

I don't think it's hard to stay a vassal at all, in fact I think it's extremely relaxing. I started as the 2 size count in east india and I didn't even make an empire until literally 1453 the year the game ends. I was just chilling as a count/duke for a couple hundred years.

[CrUsHeR]

Playing a vassal means relying on sheer luck. In particular as Count or Duke who wants to "stay small", you are barely a pawn on the global chess board.

Peasant revolt? Meh, your lazy liege grants them independence. Game over for you.
Foreign power has claims on your county, or some tribal/nomad/muslim invasion - game over.
Your liege forges a claim on your titles and revokes it, game over.

[Fizzypop]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

Originally posted by Fizzypop:

The game kind of punishes you if you don't expand as over time CP will just make you weaker the more kids you have. I really wish the gameplay was more forgiving when it comes to lower titles. I understand why it's not for higher titles, but it can make it difficult to stay a lowly vassal family.

cp?

the game punishes you for expanding too much as well (you'll see what a nightmare it is to become head of the HRE or byzantine if you took it over late game)

I don't think it's hard to stay a vassal at all, in fact I think it's extremely relaxing. I started as the 2 size count in east india and I didn't even make an empire until literally 1453 the year the game ends. I was just chilling as a count/duke for a couple hundred years.

Confederate partition. As someone else said it's mostly luck based if you aren't expanding. It's very easy to then lose so much of your land or have kingdoms split...it's what happened to me for my very first run for England. My brother got the better half too.

So it's not like you have to expand, but if you don't then you are always at risk of a game over. Which is why I feel punished for not expanding.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by Fizzypop:

Originally posted by snuggleform:

cp?

the game punishes you for expanding too much as well (you'll see what a nightmare it is to become head of the HRE or byzantine if you took it over late game)

I don't think it's hard to stay a vassal at all, in fact I think it's extremely relaxing. I started as the 2 size count in east india and I didn't even make an empire until literally 1453 the year the game ends. I was just chilling as a count/duke for a couple hundred years.

Confederate partition. As someone else said it's mostly luck based if you aren't expanding. It's very easy to then lose so much of your land or have kingdoms split...it's what happened to me for my very first run for England. My brother got the better half too.

So it's not like you have to expand, but if you don't then you are always at risk of a game over. Which is why I feel punished for not expanding.

Oh, but maybe it's because you don't use a technique which I invented a while ago - when you are dying of old age, just give away all but one land to non-dynasty members, so there's no risk of CP giving someone the "better half." Sure you go down to 1/6 domain, but that's better than game over.

[Fizzypop]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

Originally posted by Fizzypop:

Confederate partition. As someone else said it's mostly luck based if you aren't expanding. It's very easy to then lose so much of your land or have kingdoms split...it's what happened to me for my very first run for England. My brother got the better half too.

So it's not like you have to expand, but if you don't then you are always at risk of a game over. Which is why I feel punished for not expanding.

Oh, but maybe it's because you don't use a technique which I invented a while ago - when you are dying of old age, just give away all but one land to non-dynasty members, so there's no risk of CP giving someone the "better half." Sure you go down to 1/6 domain, but that's better than game over.

I did that in the next succession, but because my son/heir was young and not well liked yet (I had 8 years with him he died from stress because of a civil war lol 😂) this also caused another spilt and civil war. And somehow I got a different capital than the land I definitely owned. So I don't know what happened, but my capital and county owned was moved. Regardless, that means you lose a ton of land to vassals. I find the two Dutchy limit rather annoying.

I know there are ways around it and now that I am more experienced I can handle a lot more (and understand succession better), but I do find the game really pushes only 2 real play styles. Playing any other way is hard and/or incredibly tedious.

There is no nuance either. Relationships lack nauce that is more realistic. You know if someone is chaste conceiving is damn near impossible. If someone is lustful you know they will cheat no matter what. It's all too heavy handed which makes only a few playstyles really worth it. So cheating for rp is often what I have to do.