help me understand how claims are inherited

[snuggleform]

I started as a tribal in 866, am currently in 1064, and I was examining an independent empire with male preference succession, and I noticed that in the claimant list, there were a number of women with pressed claims on the empire title.

How does that happen?

From my understanding, women do NOT get implicit claims (implicit claims are claims that children have on all titles owned by the parents), this I verified by looking at both my children and the children of other realms with male preference, so that rules out their getting the pressed claim that way (implicit claims become pressed claims when the parent dies).

Where are they getting the pressed claims from?

I also ruled out them fabricating an unpressed claim then converting to a pressed claim, because you can't fabricate a claim on an empire level title.

I also ruled out that they used the steward perk to claim throne, because at least 2 of them were martial specced. (unless they use lifestyles they aren't specced for?)

Somebody enlighten me on how females are getting pressed claims on empire titles? I think there's a pathway to that I'm just not understanding.

[doroboro]

You're reminding me that I wish you could go to other rulers' succession tab the same way we can view our own. When I go to the realm tab, I like clicking on succession to see how it'll all shake out. For other realms though, I click on the title icon and I can see a list of claimants in order, as you say - but I have no idea how many of those people listed are actually in line to get some land.

In my initial 100 hours, I'm seeing only 3 or 4 inheritors usually, and then other children just get claims. Maybe these are the claims/claimants you're seeing? I'm not sure. My approximation though, is that they are sort of "in-line" to inherit if a bunch of other people die first.

[NicouLenny]

Hi Snuggleform,

A claim represents a character's legal right to obtain a title which is not theirs and allows the creation of a claimant faction.

If the title belongs to a vassal, the claim allows the liege to revoke the claimed title without incurring tyranny.
Otherwise, a claim provide a casus belli to gain the claimed title through war.
Alternatively, if the title belongs to the liege and the government is tribal, the claimant vassal can use the ‘Challenge the Ruler’ decision, which is a duel.

Claims can be pressed or unpressed.

• Pressed claims are inherited by the character's primary heir as unpressed
  
• Unpressed claims are not inherited by the character's primary heir but can become pressed if they are used for a casus belli and the war ends in white peace
  
• Implicit claims are given to all children of a character on its titles and will become pressed if the character dies and the child does not inherit the title

And you can also create new claims by using "Fabricate Claim on County". Your councilor Bishop will provide an unpressed claim on the targeted county; If the court chaplain has high learning, there is a 20% chance of gaining a claim on the county's de jure duchy instead!

You can get more information with our document in-game, search "Claim" to learn more ways to get claims through events, perks, as a dynasty head, etc :)

[snuggleform]

Hi Nicou,

unfotunately that doesn't answer my question. I'm aware of all tat information already, and I explained why none of them fit.

Specifically, daughters do NOT GET IMPLICIT claims you can verify this for yourself in a male dominated hierarchy. It says so on the male dominated tooltip under religion, and you can also verify by clicking on any daughter, you will see plainly they have no implicit claims while their brothers do.

This is why I'm super confused, how are women getting pressed claims on male dominated empire level titles if they can't get the implicit claim to begin with? I've already ruled out the fabricate casus belli route because as I said you can't fabricate on an empire level title.

I've ruled out perks because the perks belong to steward, when the women were martial specced. The women can't be dynasty head in a male dominated hierarchy, so they aren't claiming titles that way. You cannot buy empire level claims either with piety.

There must be some route of claim I'm missing that explains it.

[CrUsHeR]

For the regular male dominated realms with male preference (not male-only)

Daughters don't have implicit claims while their ruling parent is alive, as long as there are any sons for the heir role.

However they do inherit pressed claims, and their children inherit unpressed claims.


So for example you marry a daughter of the King of Denmark, then all your children from that marriage will inherit unpressed claims. That is, after both the original King of Denmark and their mother are dead.
Then you die, and with your son you can press your own claim on Denmark.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

For the regular male dominated realms with male preference (not male-only)

Daughters don't have implicit claims while their ruling parent is alive, as long as there are any sons for the heir role.

However they do inherit pressed claims, and their children inherit unpressed claims.


So for example you marry a daughter of the King of Denmark, then all your children from that marriage will inherit unpressed claims. That is, after both the original King of Denmark and their mother are dead.
Then you die, and with your son you can press your own claim on Denmark.

I don't quite follow:

Why do daughters inherit pressed claims, but don't have implicit claims while ruing parent is alive? What's the point of an implicit claim then at all? Can implicit claims be used by a child or something? I thought you had to have an implicit claim in order for it to turn into a pressed claim on succession.

And with your example, why would you need to die to press the claim on denmark? Could you not just press the claim on your son's behalf (assuming that the king of denmark and mom have died).

[RobG4]

Daughters will get pressed claims when their ruler parents die. They don't get implicit claims. Implicit claims can be used against rulers. For ex: you bring one of a neighboring ruler's unlanded son into your court by matrilineal marrying to your female courtier - usually one of your daughters. Then you can press his implicit claim against his father. All this assumes male dominated succession laws. Females can only press claims against female and child rulers.

[Squashbuckler]

Dont worry too much about succession, it just happens. Family is all that matters. Setup your kids!

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by RobG4:

Daughters will get pressed claims when their ruler parents die. They don't get implicit claims. Implicit claims can be used against rulers. For ex: you bring one of a neighboring ruler's unlanded son into your court by matrilineal marrying to your female courtier - usually one of your daughters. Then you can press his implicit claim against his father. All this assumes male dominated succession laws. Females can only press claims against female and child rulers.

I think this answers my question. It's unfortunately not clear that this is the case from official text sources like that one nicou provided but I think this is the only explanation for how the women are getting pressed claims in a male dominated religion since I've eliminated all other sources of how they could get there.

[RobG4]

ALL children get pressed claims IF their parents die as a ruler.

Think of it like this:
-An Implicit Claim means the claim owner has the right take that title by conquest any time he wants. Even if it's ruled by his father.
-All children of a landed ruler have the right to the title when their parents die (Pressed Claim). Males are given preference (can press a claim any time against anyone). Females can only press against other females or children.

[RobG4]

To make sense of this system, and why it existed, imagine life in feudal Germany in the 9th century.

You are a minor noble who owns a few villages in a nice river valley. You and the other nobles want to create a legal system by which your property can stay in your family. Your pagan tribal ancestors were all about right of conquest. But you are Christian, civilized. You and the other nobles create a new rule of law that says only family members (however distant) can have a legal claim to your land. In order to make it fair, the land will be divided equally among all male children.

But life happens, children die, are born idiots, or are bad rulers. Your firstborn son is not always the best ruler. So all your children have the right to claim that property, if they can, after you die. Even your grand kids have a tenuous claim to the land. This insures that even through plagues, wars, infertility, etc...SOME relative should end up with the property,

[RobG4]

Originally posted by D4Deez:

You're reminding me that I wish you could go to other rulers' succession tab the same way we can view our own. When I go to the realm tab, I like clicking on succession to see how it'll all shake out. For other realms though, I click on the title icon and I can see a list of claimants in order, as you say - but I have no idea how many of those people listed are actually in line to get some land.

In my initial 100 hours, I'm seeing only 3 or 4 inheritors usually, and then other children just get claims. Maybe these are the claims/claimants you're seeing? I'm not sure. My approximation though, is that they are sort of "in-line" to inherit if a bunch of other people die first.

If you hover your cursor over a character portrait, it will show you want that character stands to inherit (doesn't show what claims he/she will end up with, but a quick glance at parents/grand parents will give you an idea of what claims they will end up with IF THE PARENT/GRANDPARENT DIES WHILE RULING.