what is the requirement for a subjugation casus belli (tribals)?

[snuggleform]

Two playthroughs ago I was Rarik and I used a subjugation claim on the Khara-something empire to the east of me, when I was adjacent to it.

Right now, I'm Dhaura of Africa, and I wanted to use a subjugation claim on the empire to the right of me, and I had one territory adjacent to it, but I could not launch a subjugation claim. I was however, able to launch a subjugation claim on the kingdom bordering my original territories, so it's not just a viking-only thing.

What exactly enables a subjugation claim? More specifically, why wasn't I able to as Dhaura launch one against the empire to the east?

[snuggleform]

Aite here's photo 1 indicating I have a subjugation to the kingdom south of me

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2365734048

Photo 2 says I don't have one against the empire I'm bordered with?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2365686811

Recall that I have successfully subjugated an empire in my Rarik playthrough, so I know it's possible, I just don't know why I can't trigger it in Dhaura's case.

[Rheinmetall]

I'm not sure but I don't think you can subjugate an empire (which the "missing" one is), it probably needs to be an independent king.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by Rheinmetall:

I'm not sure but I don't think you can subjugate an empire (which the "missing" one is), it probably needs to be an independent king.

But I mentioned (twice!) that as Rarik, I was able to subjugate an empire....and I was a King when I did it.

[BaCaz]

https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Casus_belli#Objective

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by BaCaz:

https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Casus_belli#Objective

Is it trying to say that the defender must be tribal, eastern, or temporal head of faith? Or is that the requirement of the attacker? It's not clear.

My best guess is that it's the attacker who must meet that requirement, because clearly rulers like murchard don't have such a casus belli. If it's the attacker that must meet that requirement, your link is useless in answering my original question since it merely tells me what I already know - that tribals have the ability to declare subjugation casus belli, but the question is why can't I subjugate the empire in photo 2 when as rarik I was about to subjugate an empire?

[CrUsHeR]

IIRC - the hidden requirement is that the target is at least part of your religion group, no matter if hostile/evil or not.

Example, a tribal Coptic ruler could subjugate a Muslim ruler, because both are part of the Abrahamic group - despite the faiths having a hostile stance towards each other. But he couldn't subjugate any Pagan ruler.

And in asia, a Buddhist could subjugate a Hindu ruler, but none of the Böns because they are not an Eastern but a Pagan faith.



Here you can check the faiths sorted by religion and religion groups, see if it matches what you're seeing.

https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Faith

[snuggleform]

Wait a second, my rarik was sloviaskian (pagan, unreformed), yet the empire I subjugated (khazaria) is jewish! (abrahamic).

I guess I'm still confused.

[snuggleform]

Here's a screenshot of my rarik subjugating an empire level claim. And no, the religion types do not match. Rarik is pagan, khazaria is jewish (abrahamic). According to your claim, they must be of the same family of religions.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2366188110

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2366188252

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

Wait a second, my rarik was sloviaskian (pagan, unreformed), yet the empire I subjugated (khazaria) is jewish! (abrahamic).

I guess I'm still confused.

Well now i'm also confused ;)

What i wrote above was definitely matching my own experience, both in my offensive wars as well as attacks by the AI.


Perhaps there are more layers to this; for example the Slovianska faith is Fundamentalist, which is extremely rare and changes a couple of things.

Maybe tribals can also always subjugate each other without limitations?

And in your case with Daura, maybe the subjugation works similar to claims, where female claims cannot be pressed against male dominated realms, unless the current ruler is also female or a child.

[snuggleform]

But my current ruler in my "dhaura" run is a male, and I reformed the bori faith to be fundamentalist because it allows seizure of lands in holy wars. The target is a muslim faith that is male dominated.

(and even if it were a female, I've already reformed the faith to be "equal")

[CrUsHeR]

And is that muslim ruler tribal or not?
If not, it would match the observations so far:

Tribal: Can subjugate other tribals, and any non-tribal member of his religion group

Non-Tribal: Can only subjugate same religion group

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

But my current ruler in my "dhaura" run is a male, and I reformed the bori faith to be fundamentalist because it allows seizure of lands in holy wars. The target is a muslim faith that is male dominated.

(and even if it were a female, I've already reformed the faith to be "equal")

FYI, the claim situation depends on the laws of the target realm, not your own.

Basically means that claims are always legal and respected, but the claimant must fulfill the house rules.

[snuggleform]

The muslim empire is a clan.