Force Abdication

[alegdansk]

As you know, by subscribing the Mod "Abdication" (created by Slightly Productive) it's possible to abdicate in every moment and it's possible also to force your vassals to abdicate whenever you want (transforming them in your rivals).
The Mod is quite useful in certain situation and I thank the modder who has created it.
I'm wondering if, in the real world, it was really possible for a King to force someone to abdicate among his vassals.
Does anybody know something about that?
Thanx

[Archer the Bowless]

Abdication is just silly. You're playing with a silly mechanic. Have fun if you'd like but it's very unrealistic. It was very rare to happen in the entirety of history, and mostly happened in China.

I completely understand why it would be beneficial in this game, and how it would makes things easier and flow better, but it's just way to goofy of an idea for me, and should be for anyone who's serious about playing CK3.

[corisai]

Originally posted by alegdansk:

I'm wondering if, in the real world, it was really possible for a King to force someone to abdicate among his vassals.

No, especially in medieval timeline. Even abducating someone yourself is an absolute fantasy if applied to landed nobles.

And abducation was nerfed in 1.1 because it was a completely broken OP mechanic, so efficiently you're playing with cheats and know it.

[alegdansk]

Originally posted by Tewksberry:

Abdication was very rare to happen in the entirety of history

That's what I meant.
I like not to get the game unrealistic, that's why I asked.
So you think it's unrealistic to force someone to abdicate?

[alegdansk]

Originally posted by corisai:

Originally posted by alegdansk:

I'm wondering if, in the real world, it was really possible for a King to force someone to abdicate among his vassals.

No, especially in medieval timeline. Even abducating someone yourself is an absolute fantasy if applied to landed nobles.

And abducation was nerfed in 1.1 because it was a completely broken OP mechanic, so efficiently you're playing with cheats and know it.

So abdication wasn't possible?
I don't want to get the game unrealistic.

[VipreRX]

Originally posted by alegdansk:

That's what I meant.
I like not to get the game unrealistic, that's why I asked.
So you think it's unrealistic to force someone to abdicate?

Forcing someone to abdicate is generally referred to as deposing and usually happened at swordpoint. You can accomplish the same thing in the vanilla game by revoking a vassal's titles law permitting.

The way the mods sounds like it works though is not recorded as being very common in western history.

[king.steve1]

Originally posted by corisai:

So abdication wasn't possible?
I don't want to get the game unrealistic.

Technically it was possible, it just didn't happen. Forcing someone else to abdicate was essentially conquest without war. Imagine I come over to your house, pull a knife on you and tell you to get out - and if you do, I legally own your house.

There might also have been rare occasions where an heir had a secret (hook) so great on a liege the might be able to force the person to "retire" early, but it was so rare that it might as well not happen at all.

[alegdansk]

Originally posted by VipreRX:

Originally posted by alegdansk:

That's what I meant.
I like not to get the game unrealistic, that's why I asked.
So you think it's unrealistic to force someone to abdicate?

Forcing someone to abdicate is generally referred to as deposing and usually happened at swordpoint. You can accomplish the same thing in the vanilla game by revoking a vassal's titles law permitting.

The way the mods sounds like it works though is not recorded as being very common in western history.

In fact if I use this Mod to depose someone, the ex vassal (deposed) gets -100 opinion of me and becomes a rival. Usually his son takes his place but soon or later the ex vassal creates a faction against me generally. I say "generally" but to be honest I've used this mode to force someone to abdicate only three times (because I don't like to have 1000 rivals of course).
The other function of the mode (simple abdication) could be useful maybe one day if for example the liege I play is crazy, or too old, or for some reason...
What do you think?

[alegdansk]

Originally posted by king.steve1:

Originally posted by corisai:

So abdication wasn't possible?
I don't want to get the game unrealistic.

Technically it was possible, it just didn't happen. Forcing someone else to abdicate was essentially conquest without war. Imagine I come over to your house, pull a knife on you and tell you to get out - and if you do, I legally own your house.

There might also have been rare occasions where an heir had a secret (hook) so great on a liege the might be able to force the person to "retire" early, but it was so rare that it might as well not happen at all.

Yeah, I think you're right.
I guess I will un-subscribe this Mod

[VipreRX]

I think if general historical "realism/accuracy" is really something that concerns you you should avoid that mod.

[JuX]

Don't think such a thing ever really happened in the Christian world. Perpetrator would probably endup ousted by entire Europe.

It did happen in China at least before medieval times with Han Dynasty at least. Everyone got really upset about it and it was a sh*tstorm to say the least.

[king.steve1]

Originally posted by alegdansk:

Originally posted by VipreRX:

Forcing someone to abdicate is generally referred to as deposing and usually happened at swordpoint. You can accomplish the same thing in the vanilla game by revoking a vassal's titles law permitting.

The way the mods sounds like it works though is not recorded as being very common in western history.

In fact if I use this Mod to depose someone, the ex vassal (deposed) gets -100 opinion of me and becomes a rival. Usually his son takes his place but soon or later the ex vassal creates a faction against me generally. I say "generally" but to be honest I've used this mode to force someone to abdicate only three times (because I don't like to have 1000 rivals of course).
The other function of the mode (simple abdication) could be useful maybe one day if for example the liege I play is crazy, or too old, or for some reason...
What do you think?

I mean, I really don't have a pony in this race - you do what makes the game fun for you. I will say that I think the abdication idea would be a game breaker for me. Part of the fun - and I get that fun is relative to the individual - is the uncertain world where that old ruler might live well beyond his "expire by" date and create problems in terms of inheritance. Likewise, simply being able to remove vassals or other leaders who are in my way seems like a cheat.

[alegdansk]

Originally posted by VipreRX:

I think if general historical "realism/accuracy" is really something that concerns you you should avoid that mod.

Yeah ;)

[alegdansk]

Originally posted by king.steve1:

Originally posted by alegdansk:

In fact if I use this Mod to depose someone, the ex vassal (deposed) gets -100 opinion of me and becomes a rival. Usually his son takes his place but soon or later the ex vassal creates a faction against me generally. I say "generally" but to be honest I've used this mode to force someone to abdicate only three times (because I don't like to have 1000 rivals of course).
The other function of the mode (simple abdication) could be useful maybe one day if for example the liege I play is crazy, or too old, or for some reason...
What do you think?

I mean, I really don't have a pony in this race - you do what makes the game fun for you. I will say that I think the abdication idea would be a game breaker for me. Part of the fun - and I get that fun is relative to the individual - is the uncertain world where that old ruler might live well beyond his "expire by" date and create problems in terms of inheritance. Likewise, simply being able to remove vassals or other leaders who are in my way seems like a cheat.

Yeah, I agree ;)

[kaiyl_kariashi]

It wasn't completely unheard of, however about the only time it happened was if the Top Liege was extremely old or otherwise impaired, and wanted to go ahead and hand off the realm to his heir while he could still guide him a bit from the background. That was usually considered acceptable as it meant the realm was less likely to be torn up in a succession crisis or under the whims of a senile/addled monarch.

Though it typically had to be approved by the High Nobles, and could lead to a civil war if they did it anyway after being refused. (typically this because the Nobles WANTED the senile/addled monarch on the throne because it was easier for them to do what they wanted vs the potential for a new and vigorous King, however this varies from noble to noble and time/place/culture).

However it also depended on succession laws and culture.

In some places abdicating immediately destroyed any legitimacy of your heir's claims.


Most other abdications were the result of armed revolts to force a tyrannical liege to abdicate. Or a son attempting to speed up his inheirtence via overt action, which may or may not have noble support.

[alegdansk]

Originally posted by kaiyl_kariashi:

It wasn't completely unheard of, however about the only time it happened was if the Top Liege was extremely old or otherwise impaired, and wanted to go ahead and hand off the realm to his heir while he could still guide him a bit from the background. That was usually considered acceptable as it meant the realm was less likely to be torn up in a succession crisis or under the whims of a senile/addled monarch.

That was exactly the reason why I thought to subscribe this Abdication Mod.
For example I had an homosexual king (without children of course) and with serious health problems and I decided to make him abdicate in favour of his brother.