Mongolian invasions are stupidly overpowered

[Vulpes ferrilata]

Hi

I've just lost a Roman empire covering 80% of the map because I didn't have time to raise my army of 150,000 soldiers before the Mongols' lightning rush. Seriously, what are we supposed to do? Instant raising are only allowed for mercenary bands, which are ridiculously few in number, and religious orders, which are limited to one at a time.

Not to mention the fact that they can conquer a gigantic empire by capturing less than two duchies. Do you really think Constantinople would capitulate just because a handful of villages had been captured in Siberia?

Please fix.

[brownacs]

I feel your pain. The Mongol invasion's a pain in the arse (I'm sure if we asked the Sultan of the Khwarezmian Empire, he'd agree). It is beatable though if you know it's coming and have enough troops, although yeah even then easier said than done. Hard to say how doable this'll be without seeing your map but could you reload and make the Siberian parts of your empire independent? That should give you a bit more time.

[Vulpes ferrilata]

Ironman so no reload... Actually, I beat them three times before this last quick rush for which I didn't have time to raise my troops. Developers should reduce the time needed to raise armies or increase the number of counties to capture in order to win empire title.

[Mazquerade]

That's the point of Mongol invasion I assume.
Historicaly, when Mongols arrived, nobody stood a chance, anywhere they went.
People learned how to deal with them (to some extent) eventually but initialy the invasion was massive.

[brownacs]

Originally posted by Mazquerade:

That's the point of Mongol invasion I assume.
Historicaly, when Mongols arrived, nobody stood a chance, anywhere they went. The pressure of their invasion dropped once the khan died and vast majority of general/leaders went back to attend to his funeral.
People learned how to deal with them (to some extent) eventually but initialy the invasion was massive.

To be fair, that Khan dying was actually Ogedei, not Genghis (when they were very close to Vienna and just packed up and went home... EDIT: also they went back to attend the Kurultai to elect the next Khan, not so much for the funeral... I don't think Ogedei's body would've kept that long). Genghis didn't make it farther than about Iran. They also did lose. Ogedei tried to annex the Korean peninsula and failed, their invasion of Japan failed, they lost to the Mamluks in Egypt/the Levant, it took them quite a while to conquer south China and their second invasion of Hungary failed... and that's just off the top of my head.

[Mazquerade]

Originally posted by brownacs:

Originally posted by Mazquerade:

That's the point of Mongol invasion I assume.
Historicaly, when Mongols arrived, nobody stood a chance, anywhere they went. The pressure of their invasion dropped once the khan died and vast majority of general/leaders went back to attend to his funeral.
People learned how to deal with them (to some extent) eventually but initialy the invasion was massive.

To be fair, that Khan dying was actually Ogedei, not Genghis (when they were very close to Vienna and just packed up and went home... EDIT: also they went back to attend the Kurultai to elect the next Khan, not so much for the funeral... I don't think Ogedei's body would've kept that long). Genghis didn't make it farther than about Iran. They also did lose. Ogedei tried to annex the Korean peninsula and failed, their invasion of Japan failed, they lost to the Mamluks in Egypt/the Levant, it took them quite a while to conquer south China and their second invasion of Hungary failed... and that's just off the top of my head.

Fair point. Editted my comment.

[Prince Maslama]

People said the same thing back in the 13th century.

[Vulpes ferrilata]

Originally posted by Prince Maslama:

People said the same thing back in the 13th century.

Probably but my point here is precisely that they can beat an overpowering empire that outnumbers them (3:1 ratio) only because by the time you raise your troops they've already captured the few counties needed to claim your title. Which makes no sense at all.

[The Former]

Originally posted by Vulpes ferrilata:

Originally posted by Prince Maslama:

People said the same thing back in the 13th century.

Probably but my point here is precisely that they can beat an overpowering empire that outnumbers them (3:1 ratio) only because by the time you raise your troops they've already captured the few counties needed to claim your title. Which makes no sense at all.

𝕿𝖔 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝕴𝖑𝖑𝖚𝖘𝖙𝖗𝖎𝖔𝖚𝖘 𝖁𝖚𝖕𝖑𝖊𝖘 𝖋𝖊𝖗𝖗𝖎𝖑𝖆𝖙𝖆,

May your fur be ever-fluffed.

1. Define "few". Surely it doesn't take so long to raise your forces... When I was only King of Brittany, I would have to have lost like 6+ counties before my title could be usurped.

2. If this is an unavoidable problem, my advice would be to set a rally point close to the invasion point and raise local levies. Assign to them your second-best commander, ideally one with defensive command traits. These troops can be used to delay sieges until your main force assembles.

I recently won a war against superior numbers like this by delaying their siege long enough for my own to complete, allowing me to secure surrender. If your foe has inferior numbers, it should work all the better.

[zorkman]

Didn't Paradox speed up sieges in a recent patch, which makes war shorter. I don't like this change, & expect it was the map painters who wanted this.

[The Former]

Originally posted by zorkman:

Didn't Paradox speed up sieges in a recent patch, which makes war shorter. I don't like this change, & expect it was the map painters who wanted this.

𝕿𝖔 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖁𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖗𝖆𝖇𝖑𝖊 𝖟𝖔𝖗𝖐𝖒𝖆𝖓,

May your spymaster find many secrets, all of them true. (And none of them mine!)

I can't find any evidence of this on short notice. For what it's worth, in my most recent war I didn't notice any particular increase to siege pacing.

[Poggers]

Well,
in my first full playthrough (starting at 800 till 1450) that i am playing atm i just stated a murder complot as soon as the Khan started to spread. He died after he got 5-6 Empires in India and then his vassals ate the empire form inside.
So a good way to stop that ♥♥♥♥ is to kill him. :D

[Omnitheo]

I had basically this exact same situation in my lingua franca run.

What I ended up doing was conquering the mongols from within. I basically rebuilt my powerbase in byzantium one dutchy at a time so that I was now a king was considerable influence in the empire. Got in good with the Khan, became regent, married into the family. And then staged a coup. Within a lifetime I now had my former Roman Empire AND the Mongol Empire. My son was even a legitimate heir to both. Made for some interesting roleplay, and with all the mongolian land in the east of the map it may have actually sped things up. I'm glad I didn't give up on the campaign.

But I agree. it's some BS by the mongolians. Had a similar thing happen where they attacked into bohemia, and dismantled the entire HRE and even took my own de jure titles when I was just trying to be a tall duke in germany.

[JC]

Originally posted by Vulpes ferrilata:

Ironman so no reload... Actually, I beat them three times before this last quick rush for which I didn't have time to raise my troops. Developers should reduce the time needed to raise armies or increase the number of counties to capture in order to win empire title.

Couldn't you move your troops spawning point so they had time to fill and then move them to the fight? Or is this some event thing.. I've actually never seen the mongol invasion in either game. I typically stop playing around 1100 so maybe there is a mechanic i'm unsure of. Well i did see it once in CKII, but it was nothing and crumbled before it even got to me.

[Omnitheo]

I imagine that's what they were already doing, however they may have needed to wait for troops to regroup still following other wars, especially if this were on their frontier. In the time it could take to raise enough men to adequately fight the mongols, they had likely already swept in and taken 2 weak frontier forts.

[Vulpes ferrilata]

Originally posted by JC:

Originally posted by Vulpes ferrilata:

Ironman so no reload... Actually, I beat them three times before this last quick rush for which I didn't have time to raise my troops. Developers should reduce the time needed to raise armies or increase the number of counties to capture in order to win empire title.

Couldn't you move your troops spawning point so they had time to fill and then move them to the fight? Or is this some event thing.. I've actually never seen the mongol invasion in either game. I typically stop playing around 1100 so maybe there is a mechanic i'm unsure of. Well i did see it once in CKII, but it was nothing and crumbled before it even got to me.

I moved the spawning point as close as possible to them but not directly on the frontline because raising 150k troops need space and sometimes it goes wrong with isolated troops being attacked before they have finished to spawn. Anyway, the speed with which the Mongols are taking over the counties is unstoppable. The worst thing was that it was the fourth invasion attempt and the Khan was already dead, his heir got me.