New Religions... Differences between Concubines and Multiple Wives

[Falkeep]

I created a new religion that included polyamorous marriages. What I was changing from had concubines. When I switched to the new religion, concubinism has remained and secondary wives has not happened. My Concubines who switched to my new religion are unhappy because "they are concubines but believe in polyamorous marriages."

Is this a bug that needs to be reported? Or does anyone know what the issue is (and how to fix it)?

[jerrypocalypse]

Out of curiosity, what's your culture, and does it have concubinage as a tradition?

[Abacus]

Probably for bastardization if you chose the illegitimate bastards doctrine.

This, i assume will make concubine offspring considered bastards.

Where multiple wife would still carry legitimize offspring but out of wedlock birth will not.

Something like that, Being a wife of a title holder means your child can inherit.

[Falkeep]

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

Out of curiosity, what's your culture, and does it have concubinage as a tradition?

Yes, I'm playing Wales and it has concubinage. The original problem was being Catholic with Concubines. With the new religion, my main wife (who, of course, adopted the new religion) is angry about Concubines because they are against her religious beliefs. So, again, I come back to the difference in game play between Concubines and Multiple Wives, and why it didn't change over with the new religion?

[Falkeep]

Originally posted by Simply B:

Probably for bastardization if you chose the illegitimate bastards doctrine.

This, i assume will make concubine offspring considered bastards.

Where multiple wife would still carry legitimize offspring but out of wedlock birth will not.

Something like that, Being a wife of a title holder means your child can inherit.

No, I chose no bastards. And I want a lot of legitimate kids so that I can freely give them lands and titles as I grow. Right now I'm in a multi-year holding pattern on enlarging my kingdom because of my domain limit and me not liking giving titles outside of my family.

[ShepherdOfCats]

Welsh culture allows concubines. Cultural traditions over-ride religious tenets.

If you are Catholic and the head of Welsh culture, there is an event where the Pope will demand you give up your cultural concubine traditions and embrace monogamous marraige.

So if you want your wife to stop complaining about your concubines, reform your culture. If you do not have the Royal court DLC and have reached the max number of cultural traditions for your era, you will have to wait for the event that I mentioned in the spoiler.

[jerrypocalypse]

Originally posted by Simply B:

Probably for bastardization if you chose the illegitimate bastards doctrine.

This, i assume will make concubine offspring considered bastards.

Where multiple wife would still carry legitimize offspring but out of wedlock birth will not.

Something like that, Being a wife of a title holder means your child can inherit.

Children of concubines get the "child of a concubine" trait, regardless of the bastards faith tenant.

[Falkeep]

Originally posted by ShepherdOfCats:

Welsh culture allows concubines. Cultural traditions over-ride religious tenets.

If you are Catholic and the head of Welsh culture, there is an event where the Pope will demand you give up your cultural concubine traditions and embrace monogamous marraige.

So if you want your wife to stop complaining about your concubines, reform your culture. If you do not have the Royal court DLC and have reached the max number of cultural traditions for your era, you will have to wait for the event that I mentioned in the spoiler.

Well, that event already happened and I went against him. That was one of the reasons that I started a new religion. In that religion having multiple wives is okay. My problem is that it has continued to make other women into Concubines instead of Secondary Wives, much less giving me the option of marrying my Concubines or something that would make them Wives. My Concubines are not complaining about being in a marriage with multiple other women, they are complaining that they are Concubines instead of Secondary Wives. It is not about reforming my culture, it is about my reforming my religion and the game not making the change.

[jerrypocalypse]

Originally posted by Falkeep:

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

Out of curiosity, what's your culture, and does it have concubinage as a tradition?

Yes, I'm playing Wales and it has concubinage. The original problem was being Catholic with Concubines. With the new religion, my main wife (who, of course, adopted the new religion) is angry about Concubines because they are against her religious beliefs. So, again, I come back to the difference in game play between Concubines and Multiple Wives, and why it didn't change over with the new religion?

Cultural tradition overrides faith tenants. So even though your faith has polyamorous marriage, your concubinage cultural tradition takes precedence as far as what you're allowed to do. If you're cultural head you can reform.the culture to get rid of the concubinage tradition and it should fix your issue and allow you to make your concubine into an additional wife.

[Falkeep]

Originally posted by jerrypocalypse:

Originally posted by Simply B:

Probably for bastardization if you chose the illegitimate bastards doctrine.

This, i assume will make concubine offspring considered bastards.

Where multiple wife would still carry legitimize offspring but out of wedlock birth will not.

Something like that, Being a wife of a title holder means your child can inherit.

Children of concubines get the "child of a concubine" trait, regardless of the bastards faith tenant.

Wellllll, that is why I don't want to have Concubines, I want to have multiple Wives. Polyamourous Marriages are one of the tenets / doctrines that you can chose when you create a new religion. Also, no kids being bastards is another one of those choices and is one that I put in there. I don't have any bastards, No one in my kingdom has bastards, although children born to women out of wedlock get a "wild oats" trait. I just continue to have Concubines who I cannot turn into Wives, including ones I have picked AFTER I enacted the new religion.

I'm trying hard to not be sarcastic and pissing off the moderators but, have any of you actually played around with the creating your own religion features? I talk about it in an earlier thread having to do with limitations on establishing sins and virtues that aren't based on my original religion.

[ShepherdOfCats]

It does not matter what you chose as a religious tenet. Polygamous or concubines, does NOT matter.

Two people have told you that CULTURAL TRADITION **overrides** RELIGION. You could choose 'no marriage' as a religious belief if that were an option, and the game would still expect you to have concubines because that's what your culture demands.

If you want your culture to have polygamy, maybe try merging with the irish. Call it the Welrish, or the Irelsh.

[Falkeep]

Originally posted by ShepherdOfCats:

It does not matter what you chose as a religious tenet. Polygamous or concubines, does NOT matter.

Two people have told you that CULTURAL TRADITION **overrides** RELIGION. You could choose 'no marriage' as a religious belief if that were an option, and the game would still expect you to have concubines because that's what your culture demands.

If you want your culture to have polygamy, maybe try merging with the irish. Call it the Welrish, or the Irelsh.

The problem was NOT cultural. The objection from my wife as a Catholic was that having Concubines was an affront to her Catholic Faith, but the Concubines were fine with it even though they were Catholics, also.

Now, under the new religion, the Concubines are upset because:

"Serving as Concubine but believes in Polygamous Marriage."

Now, I am perfectly happy to marry them. THAT is what I (and they) want to have happen. And, that is what I created my religion to allow. So, while I don't accept your reason that it is a cultural problem rather than a bug or something with the create your own religion feature, IF somehow that is part of it then it is just another ♥♥♥♥-up by the developers to not deliver on what the feature says it does.- For the amount of money I paid for the game and the DLC, the designers really don't seem to focus as much on game play as they do on new pretty costumes and music.

[Falkeep]

Okay, although no one actually explained anything to me rather than just yell at me about culture, doing my own digging around got me to the define / modify your culture feature. So, now I understand that.

If I should happen to see someone else raising this issue, I will actually explain to them how to bring up the cultural menu and make changes. Now, trying to change my culture (at least from concubines to polygamy) will take 40 years to take effect AND that I am seeing results from my new religion that I would do differently, I'm just going to go ahead and start over using what I have learned on my own, although with some attacks that helped me figure this out for myself.

This is why I don't spend much time on message boards, and why I don't create a friends list or anything. It just isn't worth the frustration.

[ShepherdOfCats]

I'm glad you figured it out.

I wasn't trying to yell but you're not the first to find it confusing, and I was getting frustrated trying to get you to see past the 'religion' and look into 'culture.' Didn't realize you didn't actually know where to look.

When the devs introduced the culture mechanics into the game they realized there would be conflicts, so they had to make one weigh more heavily than the other, and culture won over religion (this kinda makes sense though, because in the time period you have lots of tribal rulers with long-standing traditions that would have been found rather distasteful to organized Christianity, concubines and polygamy being among them, and getting them to accept Catholic doctrines without pissing them off was probably the hardest part about missionary work)

EDIT: JUST FYI, you don't actually need to pick 'polygamous' as a cultural tradition. You can just get rid of 'concubines' since if I understand correctly you created your own religion (with polygamy) and *if* your 'culture' does not mandate either polygamy or concubines *then* your religious marriage beliefs will be what determines which type it is. (so basically you'll waste a culture slot if your religion and your culture have the same marriage system).

[Falkeep]

In the future, you could try this...
____________________________________________________________

1.) In the lower left-hand corner of the main screen you see your avatar. Look for the candle on the bar running right under your icon. Click on that candle.

2.) This will bring up your cultural menu. Here you can see what your cultural traits are as well as see pretty much any option you can want to change in/for your culture.

3.) Personalize the culture to your desire. Just be aware that you will get a message telling you that it will take MANY years (like 40) for new traits to take effect, while it will remove the current effect(s) your culture has.

4.) You can only make one change at a time so make sure what it is you want and what you want to change it to.
____________________________________________________________

Now, since this will be the first time I am trying this, I don't know what will happen during the transition time but, if there are any important notes that would explain them or prepare the reader for them, you can add them in as you think necessary and/or helpful.

In any case, that is how I would respond to someone asking about this.

[Falkeep]

Originally posted by ShepherdOfCats:

I'm glad you figured it out.

I wasn't trying to yell but you're not the first to find it confusing, and I was getting frustrated trying to get you to see past the 'religion' and look into 'culture.' Didn't realize you didn't actually know where to look.

When the devs introduced the culture mechanics into the game they realized there would be conflicts, so they had to make one weigh more heavily than the other, and culture won over religion (this kinda makes sense though, because in the time period you have lots of tribal rulers with long-standing traditions that would have been found rather distasteful to organized Christianity, concubines and polygamy being among them, and getting them to accept Catholic doctrines without pissing them off was probably the hardest part about missionary work)

EDIT: JUST FYI, you don't actually need to pick 'polygamous' as a cultural tradition. You can just get rid of 'concubines' since if I understand correctly you created your own religion (with polygamy) and if your 'culture' does not mandate either polygamy or concubines *then* your religious marriage beliefs will be what determines which type it is. (so basically you'll waste a culture slot if your religion and your culture have the same marriage system).

Thank you for this message. It helps a lot. I am autistic and I can get very frustrated when I don't understand what is happening or what I am missing. That is also why my suggestions are just plain bullet points that cut directly to it. Does that make sense?