Regents, Barons and Unlanded

[Kimlin]

I know unlanded is not on the road map but all of the mechanics coming with T&T would align nicely with being unlanded.

You could be a valiant knight who becomes notable from Tourneys and earns a Baroney. Then through the trust he gains he becomes the regent to his lieges son when he dies. Then he could either grow the sons trust and be gifted a new county or he could betray the young ruler and take it all for himself.

I hope they end up adding unlanded gameplay.

[Harris]

Originally posted by Eltar:

There's a difference between an NPC guard that just walks around on a scripted path repeating "arrow in the knee" lines and the PC being a guard with their own quests (in the vein Mage's Guild etc.) and the ability to investigate crimes and arrest people. Does the latter really sound entirely uninteresting?

The latter does sound like making a game within a game. For it not to feel an afterthought it'd need a questline, radiant quests, mechanics to enable said investigating crimes and arresting people. Of course, it would also require making a distinct progression and rewards for it. End result? Lots of work for something most people will never engage with or will only engage once for curiosity's sake.

[Elriadon]

Originally posted by Rex:

Originally posted by Eltar:

Argument = Point of contention in a discussion. But let's not argue about semantics and actually discuss the topic of this thread.



Realm management

Can be substituted with alternate mechanics or left out entirely. Or in the case of being a council member, you can get some limited ability in that category that suits your character's position. This could apply even to landed vassal councilors, same way as a regent.

House Feuds

No reason house feuds should stop just because your family lost their holdings. If anything, it make them even more dangerous. And I don't think the house feud stops in an NPC house you are feuding with loses their holdings.

Holy Wars

Plenty of reasons for landless characters to engage in a Crusade. Great way to gain land too.

Factions

Plenty of reasons for a landless character to engage with this system.

Disloyal Vassals

Plenty of reasons for landless characters to engage with landed characters who offer them opportunities for service or who refuse to pay them or even become their enemy.

Any overhaul to the mechanics wouldn't be much larger than the travel system they are already implementing.



Both of those games are entirely different.



Yeah, that's about my opinion too. It would be good to have and it would fit the game, but there's things I want more.

Correct, there is no point of contention, at least not on my end. So there is no argument :P.

How familiar are you with coding or game design?

Based on what you've discussed so far, I di not think you realize the significance of overhaul required or the core design that is the "soul" of this game.

I also do not think you're understanding what I and Doc have been trying to address.

Try and look at your wants as an engineer. My point has always been about the practicality and feasibility of it.

At core, realism vs idealism.

Unlanded, in the current game, can only work as a storybook event. How the systems are designed, like war and combat, it will not work. That's why I'm adamant about showing not telling.

Also, consider player agency. What are you able to do as a player? Take what you're able to do as a player, remove the landed mechanic, do you realize how that would fundamentally break the game? Not just mechanically, but design intention as well?

You can still scheme, go on adventures, raid settlements, travel, negotiate contracts, earn money, plot to get your family on the coucil/prestigious court position, buy a house in a city ruled by someone else, fight in battles, become a bandit, join a holy order etc. There were plenty of things already mentioned before. Yes, aside from any added mechanics, a large part of it would work through events, but that's already the case in the base game.

A mod like this already exists for Crusader Kings 2. It's called Rise to Power. With the additions CK3 has, a mod like that could be even better. Particularly with Knights being actual characters.

As for what it would take... that depends on how the game is coded, but if there's a will, there's a way. It's not like I propose adding Action RPG-style combat. Mechanics that this would use already exist in the game in some form, mostly the context would be different.

Originally posted by Doc Dreamist:

Originally posted by Eltar:

Both of those games are entirely different.

That's kinda my point. The mechanics discussed so far are from completely different games. That's the fundamental problem with this entire discussion and why we're talking in circles.

In conclusion, I think unlanded gameplay sounds kinda boring, but that doesn't mean I'm entirely against it. However, I sincerely don't believe it fits within the DNA/vision/soul of CK3 as a dynastic simulator, but that's just my humble opinion.

This doesn't require many new mechanics as much as a broadening of scope and reflavoring of some existing mechanics.

And I don't get how playing an unlanded noble doesn't fit with a dynastic focus of CK3. You are still playing as the same dynasty. Just instead of playing as the king, you could be the younger brother competing in tournaments and increasing the renown of your dynasty that way. Or if you lost your ancestral holdings, you go to your relatives/allies court and come back with their armies to overthrow the usurper. In the current version, that won't happen, as you get a game over as soon as you lose your titles.

[Elriadon]

Originally posted by Harris:

Originally posted by Eltar:

There's a difference between an NPC guard that just walks around on a scripted path repeating "arrow in the knee" lines and the PC being a guard with their own quests (in the vein Mage's Guild etc.) and the ability to investigate crimes and arrest people. Does the latter really sound entirely uninteresting?

The latter does sound like making a game within a game. For it not to feel an afterthought it'd need a questline, radiant quests, mechanics to enable said investigating crimes and arresting people. Of course, it would also require making a distinct progression and rewards for it. End result? Lots of work for something most people will never engage with or will only engage once for curiosity's sake.

Same can be said for every guild/faction in Skyrim. And you can join all of them. So why not.

They added a vampire faction and a vampire hunters faction in DLC with their own questlines and mechanics. Was that a waste as well?

[Harbard]

The purpose of Crusader Kings is to play a dynasty. Plyaing unlanded isn't the most suitable thing to do for the game in itself. There would be a lot to do for it to be entertaining, so it would be a huge DLC. But there is better option for a DLC.

So for me it would be a mod, and not in the base game.

My reply doesn't feel good I think, I'm not english so I'm sorry if that was painful.

[Elriadon]

Originally posted by Harbard:

The purpose of Crusader Kings is to play a dynasty. Plyaing unlanded isn't the most suitable thing to do for the game in itself. There would be a lot to do for it to be entertaining, so it would be a huge DLC. But there is better option for a DLC.

So for me it would be a mod, and not in the base game.

My reply doesn't feel good I think, I'm not english so I'm sorry if that was painful.

It wouldn't need to be a huge DLC like Vagrants & Vagabonds or something like that that adds only unlanded play options.

You could for example have a DLC like For Coin and Glory that would greatly expand mercenaries and holy orders, add knightly orders and warrior lodges and as a bonus it could allow you to play unlanded as a mercenary band leader (maybe as a new government type) or maybe a leader of a holy order.

Then you could have another DLC focusing on trade that would add the posibility of playing a merchant as a side-thing and maybe even establishing a Merchant Republic if they plot their way into power.

Then some expansion focused on intrigue could add more court events and depth to courtiers, and with it the ability to play as a courtier or a minor wandering noble yourself.

But as was said, it would be more like something nice to have than something essential.

And it doesn't need to be something you would play hundreds of ingame years of. Just entertaining enough that it would suffice until you either rise to power or do something else.

[Doc Dreamist]

Originally posted by Eltar:

Originally posted by Rex:

Correct, there is no point of contention, at least not on my end. So there is no argument :P.

How familiar are you with coding or game design?

Based on what you've discussed so far, I di not think you realize the significance of overhaul required or the core design that is the "soul" of this game.

I also do not think you're understanding what I and Doc have been trying to address.

Try and look at your wants as an engineer. My point has always been about the practicality and feasibility of it.

At core, realism vs idealism.

Unlanded, in the current game, can only work as a storybook event. How the systems are designed, like war and combat, it will not work. That's why I'm adamant about showing not telling.

Also, consider player agency. What are you able to do as a player? Take what you're able to do as a player, remove the landed mechanic, do you realize how that would fundamentally break the game? Not just mechanically, but design intention as well?

You can still scheme, go on adventures, raid settlements, travel, negotiate contracts, earn money, plot to get your family on the coucil/prestigious court position, buy a house in a city ruled by someone else, fight in battles, become a bandit, join a holy order etc. There were plenty of things already mentioned before. Yes, aside from any added mechanics, a large part of it would work through events, but that's already the case in the base game.

A mod like this already exists for Crusader Kings 2. It's called Rise to Power. With the additions CK3 has, a mod like that could be even better. Particularly with Knights being actual characters.

As for what it would take... that depends on how the game is coded, but if there's a will, there's a way. It's not like I propose adding Action RPG-style combat. Mechanics that this would use already exist in the game in some form, mostly the context would be different.

Originally posted by Doc Dreamist:

That's kinda my point. The mechanics discussed so far are from completely different games. That's the fundamental problem with this entire discussion and why we're talking in circles.

In conclusion, I think unlanded gameplay sounds kinda boring, but that doesn't mean I'm entirely against it. However, I sincerely don't believe it fits within the DNA/vision/soul of CK3 as a dynastic simulator, but that's just my humble opinion.

This doesn't require many new mechanics as much as a broadening of scope and reflavoring of some existing mechanics.

And I don't get how playing an unlanded noble doesn't fit with a dynastic focus of CK3. You are still playing as the same dynasty. Just instead of playing as the king, you could be the younger brother competing in tournaments and increasing the renown of your dynasty that way. Or if you lost your ancestral holdings, you go to your relatives/allies court and come back with their armies to overthrow the usurper. In the current version, that won't happen, as you get a game over as soon as you lose your titles.

Yes, I've heard that a mod like this existed with CK2. However, the devs didn't implement it into CK3. How curious...

Maybe that's why it doesn't fit into the dynastic focus of CK3. Because, if it did fit into the dynastic focus, the popular CK2 mod would have been implemented into CK3 from the beginning.

[Elriadon]

Originally posted by Doc Dreamist:

Originally posted by Eltar:

You can still scheme, go on adventures, raid settlements, travel, negotiate contracts, earn money, plot to get your family on the coucil/prestigious court position, buy a house in a city ruled by someone else, fight in battles, become a bandit, join a holy order etc. There were plenty of things already mentioned before. Yes, aside from any added mechanics, a large part of it would work through events, but that's already the case in the base game.

A mod like this already exists for Crusader Kings 2. It's called Rise to Power. With the additions CK3 has, a mod like that could be even better. Particularly with Knights being actual characters.

As for what it would take... that depends on how the game is coded, but if there's a will, there's a way. It's not like I propose adding Action RPG-style combat. Mechanics that this would use already exist in the game in some form, mostly the context would be different.



This doesn't require many new mechanics as much as a broadening of scope and reflavoring of some existing mechanics.

And I don't get how playing an unlanded noble doesn't fit with a dynastic focus of CK3. You are still playing as the same dynasty. Just instead of playing as the king, you could be the younger brother competing in tournaments and increasing the renown of your dynasty that way. Or if you lost your ancestral holdings, you go to your relatives/allies court and come back with their armies to overthrow the usurper. In the current version, that won't happen, as you get a game over as soon as you lose your titles.

Yes, I've heard that a mod like this existed with CK2. However, the devs didn't implement it into CK3. How curious...

Maybe that's why it doesn't fit into the dynastic focus of CK3. Because, if it did fit into the dynastic focus, the popular CK2 mod would have been implemented into CK3 from the beginning.

The devs didn't implement Merchant Republics and Nomads into CK3. Nor did they implement Warrior Lodges, imperial government system for Byzantine Empire or secret societies. Does that mean neither of those fit into CK3? That's nor really an argument that holds much merit.

[Kimlin]

Originally posted by Doc Dreamist:

Originally posted by Eltar:

You can still scheme, go on adventures, raid settlements, travel, negotiate contracts, earn money, plot to get your family on the coucil/prestigious court position, buy a house in a city ruled by someone else, fight in battles, become a bandit, join a holy order etc. There were plenty of things already mentioned before. Yes, aside from any added mechanics, a large part of it would work through events, but that's already the case in the base game.

A mod like this already exists for Crusader Kings 2. It's called Rise to Power. With the additions CK3 has, a mod like that could be even better. Particularly with Knights being actual characters.

As for what it would take... that depends on how the game is coded, but if there's a will, there's a way. It's not like I propose adding Action RPG-style combat. Mechanics that this would use already exist in the game in some form, mostly the context would be different.



This doesn't require many new mechanics as much as a broadening of scope and reflavoring of some existing mechanics.

And I don't get how playing an unlanded noble doesn't fit with a dynastic focus of CK3. You are still playing as the same dynasty. Just instead of playing as the king, you could be the younger brother competing in tournaments and increasing the renown of your dynasty that way. Or if you lost your ancestral holdings, you go to your relatives/allies court and come back with their armies to overthrow the usurper. In the current version, that won't happen, as you get a game over as soon as you lose your titles.

Yes, I've heard that a mod like this existed with CK2. However, the devs didn't implement it into CK3. How curious...

Maybe that's why it doesn't fit into the dynastic focus of CK3. Because, if it did fit into the dynastic focus, the popular CK2 mod would have been implemented into CK3 from the beginning.

There are thousands of CK2 mods that weren’t implemented into CK3 but are universally liked…that’s not a valid argument.

[PDX-Trinexx]

We've gone more than three pages on a contentious subject without devolving into a slapfight. I'm so proud of this community.

(Don't ruin it)

[Doc Dreamist]

Originally posted by Eltar:

Originally posted by Doc Dreamist:

Yes, I've heard that a mod like this existed with CK2. However, the devs didn't implement it into CK3. How curious...

Maybe that's why it doesn't fit into the dynastic focus of CK3. Because, if it did fit into the dynastic focus, the popular CK2 mod would have been implemented into CK3 from the beginning.

The devs didn't implement Merchant Republics and Nomads into CK3. Nor did they implement Warrior Lodges, imperial government system for Byzantine Empire or secret societies. Does that mean neither of those fit into CK3? That's nor really an argument that holds much merit.

Nah. Those are expansions and additional flavor that fit within the current systems, vision, and dynastic mechanics of CK3. There is a reason it's a game over when you become unlanded. What you guys have here is a good idea for a mod. That's it.

Well, I'm done talking in circles for today. Peace! :)

[Doc Dreamist]

Originally posted by PDX-Trinexx:

We've gone more than three pages on a contentious subject without devolving into a slapfight. I'm so proud of this community.

(Don't ruin it)

Does everyone want to come over for a murde.. uh.. I mean a friendly feast at my place? XD

[Elriadon]

Originally posted by Doc Dreamist:

Originally posted by Eltar:

The devs didn't implement Merchant Republics and Nomads into CK3. Nor did they implement Warrior Lodges, imperial government system for Byzantine Empire or secret societies. Does that mean neither of those fit into CK3? That's nor really an argument that holds much merit.

Nah. Those are expansions and additional flavor that fit within the current systems, vision, and dynastic mechanics of CK3. There is a reason it's a game over when you become unlanded. What you guys have here is a good idea for a mod. That's it.

Well, I'm done talking in circles for today. Peace! :)

The travel system from the next update is a huge overhaul to several base systems in the game, Characters will now travel the land instead of instantly teleporting to wherever they needed to be or simply staying at court despite supposedly going hunting. Your location will actually matter now somewhat and it's a baseline feature. Does that mean it doesn't fit the vision of the game developers since it wasn't in the game from launch? Is it wasted effort and should instant teleportation be the way to go without any changes?

I'm just saying, the feature itself being missing doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't fit in the game.

Originally posted by PDX-Trinexx:

We've gone more than three pages on a contentious subject without devolving into a slapfight. I'm so proud of this community.

(Don't ruin it)

Well, it is a fun discussion so far :-)

[Kimlin]

The arguments I have seen so far.

It’s too large of an effort.

If we are all honest, without grooming and scoping no one knows what type of effort it will take. Neither side of that argument really had any validity.

It’s not in tune with CK3 dynastic story spirit.
I would say that it is. It helps create the origin of your dynasty or maybe the down times of your dynasty. You get to show the climb of your family or the rebuilding. All major parts of the dynastic story missing now.

The gameplay is based on being a ruler.
I would say the gameplay is based on your character and his interactions. Sure more events would need to be added to really flush out the gameplay but it’s already feasible. Now with regency there will actually be times when you are not in control of your realm. It’s only a small jump to get to unlanded gameplay.

No one wants to play that way.
I know I want to play that way and with the popularity of Rise to Power in CK2 there is certainly an appetite for it. Maybe we could put it up as a vote to be a contender for a DLC.

Those are the main points I have seen in the thread so far.

[Rex is back, baby!]

Originally posted by Kimlin:

The arguments I have seen so far.

It’s too large of an effort.
If we are all honest, without grooming and scoping no one knows what type of effort it will take. Neither side of that argument really had any validity.

It’s not in tune with CK3 dynastic story spirit. I would say that it is. It helps create the origin of your dynasty or maybe the down times of your dynasty. You get to show the climb of your family or the rebuilding. All major parts of the dynastic story missing now.

The gameplay is based on being a ruler. I would say the gameplay is based on your character and his interactions. Sure more events would need to be added to really flush out the gameplay but it’s already feasible. Now with regency there will actually be times when you are not in control of your realm. It’s only a small jump to get to unlanded gameplay.

No one wants to play that way. I know I want to play that way and with the popularity of Rise to Power in CK2 there is certainly an appetite for it. Maybe we could put it up as a vote to be a contender for a DLC.

Those are the main points I have seen in the thread so far.

Until someone makes a mod for ck3, a storybook, or a powerpoint presentation about the theory or praxis, I just cannot feasibly see your dream!

I'm for it, and I encourage discussing it, but I really think the discussion should be more about implementation.

How and Why.

Many mods have ultimately turned into game features throughout the history of game design.

For CK3 specifically, we have the advanced barbershop and Coat of Arms designer, weddings expanded; all were mods before.

Personally, segway here, I would love for CK3 to implement
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2815025787
as an official thing.
Have fish mounted on our Halls, not just fancy pelts!

Theory is all and good, but practice is what moves the engine.
CK3 is relatively easy to mod, and all the instructions are readily on the wiki. So part of my pushback is to encourage development of this mod.

Create the prototype of your dream. Turn it into a reality.
There's something incredibly enriching about creating.

I understand your points, but I cannot see them effectively while still retaining the Crusader Kings 3 personality. So I will selfishly ask for a demonstration, as I'm more a visual learner in this context!

The best way to convince the institution is to design the framework for implementation.
Everyone can pitch an idea, that's one of the lovely purposes of this forum.

Only the few can turn their ideas into a reality. I believe your passion is in the right place! If you recreate your passion into a mod, and it is very well received by the PDX community, PDX could easily think "huh, this is what the people want and there's evidence of this."

[Machiavelli]

Lole idk why people are against this. The challenge of the game is ridiculously easy already. I welcome a harder option. If they created new mechanics for unlanded characters, it would be great. It doesn't even have to be that complex. I would be fun to see If could claw myself back to my lost throne and not just get a game over screen. I've already stated some possible things that you can do as unlanded. Perhaps you can play as a merchant family in republics. That was the closest thing to unlanded gameplay in CK2.

I really liked the rise to power mod in CK2 and its highly rated. Still it isn't in the sequel. There is a clear demand for this.