Caballeros Are Heavy Calvary

[Sarimal]

I did a bit of research and it seems like Caballeros (Spanish Knights) are actually heavy cavalry not the light cavalry they are in game. Just unlike the french knights they were active earlier and there are depictions of them using chainmail (just because plate wasnt a thing)

I wonder if there is any way to get ck3 devs to reconsider?

[spasti696969]

Well the word loosely translates into a knight or low level noble / gentleman. I'd imagine they'd just change the name first before changing the game mechanics.

[Forsaken Buge]

I rarely play vanilla but that's strange, I would've expected them to have them as Jinetes rather.

[Sarimal]

Publicado originalmente por spasti696969:

Well the word loosely translates into a knight or low level noble / gentleman. I'd imagine they'd just change the name first before changing the game mechanics.

It's not just the name. The Spanish knights ("caballeros") also used lances and had armor, and if you, say, ask chatgpt it will categorize them as heavy calvalry. Light cavalry was more like the horse archers in the stepps.

[Sarimal]

Publicado originalmente por Crimson:

Publicado originalmente por Helsing:

It's not just the name. The Spanish knights ("caballeros") also used lances and had armor, and if you, say, ask chatgpt it will categorize them as heavy calvalry. Light infantry was more like the horse archers in the stepps.

Theres a clear distinction between Light Cavalry, like Jinettes or Hobilars, & Horse Archers.

Thats assuming you meant Light Cavalry & "infantry" is a typo. If you meant "Light infantry was more like the horse archers in the stepps."...then nvm

yep typo

[jawwadbr]

Publicado originalmente por Helsing:

Publicado originalmente por spasti696969:

Well the word loosely translates into a knight or low level noble / gentleman. I'd imagine they'd just change the name first before changing the game mechanics.

It's not just the name. The Spanish knights ("caballeros") also used lances and had armor, and if you, say, ask chatgpt it will categorize them as heavy calvalry. Light infantry was more like the horse archers in the stepps.

I'm might be wrong on what i'm saying. But there is three types of "caballeros" the ck3 caballeros might be the "caballeros villanos" know as commoner knights, and the commoners don't have enough money to afford hauberk and such. That's why they are Light Cavalry. You can find this info reading about Reconquista from the 8th century.

[spasti696969]

If I had to guess, nearby in France / Occitan region they have "Gendarmes" which were definitely heavy cavalry, so perhaps they thought "Cabarellos" were distinct enough in flavor to represent a different unit. They were probably just drawing names out of a hat or coming up with names on a white board for lots of different units which just had working titles like "Big Boy", "Horse Boy", etc.

[ChaosKhan]

Publicado originalmente por Helsing:

I did a bit of research and it seems like Caballeros (Spanish Knights) are actually heavy cavalry not the light cavalry they are in game. Just unlike the french knights they were active earlier and there are depictions of them using chainmail (just because plate wasnt a thing)

I wonder if there is any way to get ck3 devs to reconsider?

Then you should research better. While it's true that Caballero means "Knight" in spanish, you need to consider the time, when the Men-At-Arms become available. In the 9th century, heavily armored horsemen in the western mediterranian were the exception, rather than rule, so they are loosely put together as "light cavalry". In those times though, even owning a proper war horse, was a luxury only nobles and knights could afford, so "Caballeros" being designated as light cavalry, isn't histoically wrong at all. Maybe a bit abstract, but not wrong.

[spasti696969]

Publicado originalmente por ChaosKhan:

Publicado originalmente por Helsing:

I did a bit of research and it seems like Caballeros (Spanish Knights) are actually heavy cavalry not the light cavalry they are in game. Just unlike the french knights they were active earlier and there are depictions of them using chainmail (just because plate wasnt a thing)

I wonder if there is any way to get ck3 devs to reconsider?

Then you should research better. While it's true that Caballero means "Knight" in spanish, you need to consider the time, when the Men-At-Arms become available. In the 9th century, heavily armored horsemen were the exception, rather than rule, so they are loosely put together as "light cavalry".

If you hover over the knights somewhere, I think over their prowess score, the tool tip says something about how "Prowess represents the fighting skill of the champion and any available retinue they have accompanying them", or something like that.

So for the sake of imagination, I like to imagine the knights as leaders of small squads of heavily armored fighters, probably on horseback. Even before platemail, they probably had the best weapons and best armor (double linked chainmail, horse armor etc.) and served a similar role as the heavy lancer squads which came to prominence later in the Middle Ages.

Like how having a dog gives +1 Prowess. That can either be because walking the dog and training it gives you more exercise, or because the dog actually accompanies the knight into battle and bites at the ankles of his foes while he's fighting.

[ChaosKhan]

Publicado originalmente por spasti696969:

Publicado originalmente por ChaosKhan:

Then you should research better. While it's true that Caballero means "Knight" in spanish, you need to consider the time, when the Men-At-Arms become available. In the 9th century, heavily armored horsemen were the exception, rather than rule, so they are loosely put together as "light cavalry".

If you hover over the knights somewhere, I think over their prowess score, the tool tip says something about how "Prowess represents the fighting skill of the champion and any available retinue they have accompanying them", or something like that.

So for the sake of imagination, I like to imagine the knights as leaders of small squads of heavily armored fighters, probably on horseback. Even before platemail, they probably had the best weapons and best armor (double linked chainmail, horse armor etc.) and served a similar role as the heavy lancer squads which came to prominence later in the Middle Ages.

Like how having a dog gives +1 Prowess. That can either be because walking the dog and training it gives you more exercise, or because the dog actually accompanies the knight into battle and bites at the ankles of his foes while he's fighting.

You're now confusing different layers of abstraction there, not to mention completely ignoring upper and lower nobility. While it's true, that the game simplifies a lot of things, you can imagine Caballeros to be an armed retinue consisting of lower nobility, their sons and professional soldiers, that are being sponsored by nobles. Their horse alone means, that they certainly aren't just some beggars off the street. In those times, a horse was worth 20-30 cattle in Spain. A medieval peasant familiy was already lucky and comparatively rich, when it "owned" 1 or 2 cows.
Basically, someone who owned a horse, got it lent or owned land, making him either way nobility or a beneficiary of nobility of some status. Or he stole it...

Anyway, the point is, "light" cavalry or "heavy" cavalry: This troop type can be considered "Knights".

[AquilaESP]

I'm Spanish, I'm going to clarify the doubt: caballero is a noble title, caballero is the same as knight but translated into Spanish.

In the game there shouldn't be a unit called Caballero, since they are noble knights in the game. In the English version the nobles are called Knights and the Spanish unit is called Caballeros, but in the Spanish version the nobles are called Caballeros and the unit is also called Caballeros.

As in all countries, the noble title knight has lost its meaning and is associated with the heavy cavalry soldier. Historically the knight is the nobleman (who usually rode the horse) and the soldier riding the horse is a simple soldier, not a knight.

If it had to be named correctly, it would be Jinetes, but the jinete is any soldier who is mounted on a horse (it would include the light and heavy cavalry units currently in the game).

Since the game has many units that don't correspond to the date of the game, they could be called Guardas, which was a Spanish attempt to copy the French Gendarmes.

The Spanish cavalry was always lighter than the rest of the European cavalry, but considering that all Europeans have heavy cavalry in the game and if you rename the unit as Guardas, then it should be a heavy cavalry unit.

[spasti696969]

Publicado originalmente por RealDealBreaker:

Publicado originalmente por Helsing:

if you, say, ask chatgpt it will categorize them as heavy calvalry.

I would definitely not call chatgpt a credible source. It literally made up cases when a lawyer asked it to make a legal argument. ChatGPT can do some pretty impressive things, but it isn't 'smart' in the way a real person is and it can, has, and will make mistakes especially on matters of opinion as is the case of light vs heavy cavalry (i.e., the 'line' separating the two categorizations is blurry as ♥♥♥♥ so there will be some disagreement as to which category particular units/equipment loads will fall into).

Yea I once was asking it how to cut a pizza into 6 slices and it was like breaking the Matrix or something because it kept giving me instructions for how to cut a pizza into 8 slices, which is obvious (half, quarter, eights).

It was a completely random thing, because it doesn't sound like a weird request at first, but when you think about it in your head, it's not obvious how to cut a pizza into 6 even slices. Eventually after about 5 tries it basically just told me to measure carefully and cut each slice individually.

And the part that was weird / creepy was I'd be like "Okay you just gave me the instructions for cutting it into 8 slices. I need to know how to cut it into 6 slices", and it would be like "My apologies, I mistakenly thought you asked how to cut a pizza into 8 slices. Here is how you cut a pizza into 6 slices", and then it would give me instructions on how to cut the pizza into 8 slices again. Just over and over like that.

I've also had other incidents where I'd be asking it about some arcane topic like characters from an old cartoon and it would give me answers that were obviously wrong. Naming characters wrong, saying a supporting character was born in the same hometown as the main character when I know that's not the case (they say where he's from in the first episode). So I'd be fine with relying on it for basic questions like "What is the chemical composition of salt", but if you're using it to work on a particle accelerator you're going to run into problems quick. Or you can ask it "What day is daylight savings time this year", but if you ask it for detailed instructions on surgery it'll tell you to cut this vein instead of that vein.