Why does everyone consider the Jews evil

[HaziTru]

Christians actually praised Jews for having the pure blood line of David back then. Jews lived amongst Christians in Spain, Coptic east Africa and the Roman empire. Not sure why in CK3 there considered evil. Not historically accurate, even the Muslims were cool with jews and allowed them to have there own towns and communities in the Arab countries. I guess I have to go into the .ini files and fix this myself.

[Bibliophylax]

After a quick search, i found that most of people you quoted ended badly.
De witte committed suicide after the wallenstein command of the army ended.
Wallenstein was assasinated, and charles of lichtenstein died in 1627 can't find how.

It was in the 30 years war period and your ancestors was greeted land from protestant bohemian noble.
It's interesting you mention the "long coin" method because for me it's the focus point of why things goes bad.
I'm not historian, but if somebody have some access to austrian archive, he should investigate this.

[Kimlin]

Originally posted by Bibliophylax:

After a quick search, i found that most of people you quoted ended badly.
De witte committed suicide after the wallenstein command of the army ended.
Wallenstein was assasinated, and charles of lichtenstein died in 1627 can't find how.

It was in the 30 years war period and your ancestors was greeted land from protestant bohemian noble.
It's interesting you mention the "long coin" method because for me it's the focus point of why things goes bad.
I'm not historian, but if somebody have some access to austrian archive, he should investigate this.

Oh yeah, I know. Basically the precursor to modern central banking. The debasement of a currency never ends well.

[Bibliophylax]

I'm stupid, i mistakenly took mint for mine, because of my bad english.
Anyway after some search the amount of money they got from 1622-23 helped them to be rich by a time everyone suffered a big inflation.
The fate of Bassevi is maybe more link to what they did during the mint, more than the fact he was jewish.

[Kimlin]

Originally posted by Bibliophylax:

I'm stupid, i mistakenly took mint for mine, because of my bad english.
Anyway after some search the amount of money they got from 1622-23 helped them to be rich by a time everyone suffered a big inflation.
The fate of Bassevi is maybe more link to what they did during the mint, more than the fact he was jewish.

It goes a lot deeper than that. He was actually in the service of the Emperor of the HRE. You can probably find a lot of info on the situation if you do some digging.

[Bibliophylax]

I do, but I need a lot of digging because i don't really know the history of the period very well in the region.
I will search for books about that in a near future for sure.
The Main question i have without any answers is if the devaluation was an initiative from the consortium or an imperial order.
It could make sense for the fate of Bassevi, de Witte and Wallenstein are another storries from their own

[garthurbrown]

Originally posted by HaziTru:

No one was really fine in the Middle Ages when it came to different religions. Jews and Jewish were two different people and cultures. The Jewish were Europeans while the Jews were from the middle east and Africa so here I'm speaking of the Jews, but thats a whole different conversation.

They were seen as a lower class of people but the whole world did not consider them evil and hated them and wouldn't marry is what i'm saying. In CK3 legit every race and culture considers them evil and you cant even marry outside your own demese, or have decent Diplomacy with anyone.

The Jews were a big part of Spain history working together with the Moors and having interfaith marriages. Also the Jews in Axum were actually really liked and had a good relation with the Coptics.

This distinction has never been used in English. There are different groups of Jews or Jewish people (interchangeable) such as Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sephardi, and Beta Israel. All Jews, all Jewish.

[Ye Olde Ruiner of Empires]

Looks like someone has been triggered by words

[HaziTru]

Originally posted by garthurbrown:

Originally posted by HaziTru:

No one was really fine in the Middle Ages when it came to different religions. Jews and Jewish were two different people and cultures. The Jewish were Europeans while the Jews were from the middle east and Africa so here I'm speaking of the Jews, but thats a whole different conversation.

They were seen as a lower class of people but the whole world did not consider them evil and hated them and wouldn't marry is what i'm saying. In CK3 legit every race and culture considers them evil and you cant even marry outside your own demese, or have decent Diplomacy with anyone.

The Jews were a big part of Spain history working together with the Moors and having interfaith marriages. Also the Jews in Axum were actually really liked and had a good relation with the Coptics.

This distinction has never been used in English. There are different groups of Jews or Jewish people (interchangeable) such as Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sephardi, and Beta Israel. All Jews, all Jewish.

All i'm saying is the "Jewish" adopted the religion practices and cultures over time while the "Jews/Hebrews" were Davids and the 12 tribe's of Israel actual decedents through bloodline, who often converted to christianity, catholic or muslim some even became pagans. Being Jewish is a religion who anyone can practice while being a Jew/Hebrew is a heritage or decendance in which you are born into. In other words being "Jewish" is a Religion and being a "Jew" is a race. Its similiar to how people confuse being "Islamic" and being a "Arab".

In modern times it's different Jewish can mean either but back then being a "Jew" and being "Jewish" were completely different.

[Daddy Stalin]

The Jews were always treated like they were less worthy than christians, they were forced to live in ghettos, weren't allowed to work in fields etc

[MalteseFalcon]

Op, I greatly appreciate your optimism, but Jews were very thoroughly hated and discriminated against in the medieval Christian and Muslim worlds. At best they lived in apartheid conditions and at worst experienced continuous genocide.

My source is that I was a Jewish history teacher. But, of course, if you want hard sources, I am happy to provide them!

[MalteseFalcon]

Originally posted by HaziTru:

Originally posted by garthurbrown:

This distinction has never been used in English. There are different groups of Jews or Jewish people (interchangeable) such as Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sephardi, and Beta Israel. All Jews, all Jewish.

All i'm saying is the "Jewish" adopted the religion practices and cultures over time while the "Jews/Hebrews" were Davids and the 12 tribe's of Israel actual decedents through bloodline, who often converted to christianity, catholic or muslim some even became pagans. Being Jewish is a religion who anyone can practice while being a Jew/Hebrew is a heritage or decendance in which you are born into. In other words being "Jewish" is a Religion and being a "Jew" is a race. Its similiar to how people confuse being "Islamic" and being a "Arab".

In modern times it's different Jewish can mean either but back then being a "Jew" and being "Jewish" were completely different.

Yeah, this isn't even marginally true. Jews adopted Hellenistic, Roman, Christian, and Zoroastrian, and Muslim Gods due to to the violence of occupations of the Kingdom of Israel, Kingdom of Judah, and Kingdom of Samaria by the Seleucids, Romans/ Byzantines, and multiple Islamic empires. Jews historically notoriously do not convert en mass, with very very few exceptions.

One thing that is unfortunately very ahistorical about CK3 actually is that there is no historical or archaeological evidence that there was a mass conversion of Khazar populations at any point to a regional interpretation of Judaism; it's generally understood as an urban legend.

Jews neither evangelize nor allow easy conversion and all Jewish populations worldwide, whether with history in Ethiopia, Western India, Algeria, or Austria consider themselves Jewish ethno-racially in diaspora regardless of difference in doctrine. This was especially true in the Middle Ages when no one in their right mind would have converted to Judaism, lest you be subjected to Jizya, Pogroms, and regional and financial isolation.

I was a Jewish history teacher and am a Jewish person myself, just for context.

[MalteseFalcon]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

I think it is a difficult topic.



Judaism has been part of the european cultures since the Roman Empire. If you look back at the time of Charlemagne, the Jews were still a completely normal and relevant minority of the population. So from a random group of 20 people you couldn't tell who was jewish and who was christian.

However, since the catholic faith has always been messianic and became more and more intolerant and totalitarian over the first millenium, the church could not understand why the Jews did not convert to Christianity.

Think like you run Windows 11, but your friend still uses Windows XP. Or you have a cool E-Car but he still drives an old Diesel. You really, really want him to upgrade to your standard, since you think it's best for him and everyone else.



And it's not like Charlemagne was a tolerant person either, as he actually commited mass murder on the defeated Saxons who refused to convert to christianity.

Anyways - the ancient catholic philosopher and archreactionary Saint Augustine had decided that the Jews shall be tolerated. As he believed that their diaspora fulfilled a biblical prophecy, and they shall stay as a warning for all christians. Kind of like a fossilized dinosaur in the museum reminds us of our own possible extinction.



So that was the status quo, Judaism was a legal minority faith, unlike all the other native faiths and christian heresies of which none survived the middle ages.

But as Triangle already hinted in reply#2 above, tolerance wasn't the reality. Example the first crusade started with an armed mob marching through the Holy Roman Empire, massacring Jews on their path. With pogroms either through the general population or the ruling caste being dated back until at least the Imperial Roman rule over Egypt.

And it only got worse over the centuries, like Jews being obligated to wear a "jew hat" so they can be recognized on sight, and eventually forced to live in seperate quarters which turned into the infamous Ghettos. Martin Luther, known as the liberal church reformer, designated the Jews as the main enemy, right next to the Muslims.

By the 18th century, Jews in many places were no longer permitted to move about freely, and required an official document just to leave their ghettos.

In the 19th century, the german composer Richard Wagner not only wrote very popular music, but also was known for his hatred of Jews.

And in the 20th century, a man named Adolf Hitler was a great fan of Richard Wagner. You could say that Wagner delivered the soundtrack for the Holocaust.



All things considered, i think that the early and high medieval era shouldn't see Judaism as evil. We know that many jews had important positions at court, in trade, administration, medicine and science. So you should be able to e.g. have a jewish Court Physician employed without automatically hating one another.

For muslims it's even less relevant, since we know that both Christians and Jews were considered "Dimmis" and enjoyed a protected status within muslim realms all the way through.

I actually think your Roman understanding of Jews is starting too late in history. Romans had issues with Jews starting in antiquity with the Jewish Wars, mass executions/ crucifixions of Jews across the Judean Province, and the destruction of Jerusalem as well as renaming of the region to Syria Palestina.
Further, most of the Jews who ended up in Rome were taken there as slaves during and after the Jewish=Roman Wars.
Further, Jews in the Holy Roman Empire were restricted to ghettos, one of the most famous being in Venice. Jews were overwhelmingly not permitted to associate with Catholics at all, except in the case of occupations disallowed to Catholicism like money lending.

[Hao Zhao]

Having anything above evil relations means the two faiths will intermarry. You'd have the Queen of Norway with a heathen consort. It would cause strange things to happen all over the map.

[MalteseFalcon]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

As i said, it is a truly difficult topic.



The hate for jews is, on one hand, an integral part of the christian history. The argument was always that "the jews betrayed Jesus Christ". Although it wasn't the jews, but the roman occupators of Palestine who crucified him as the "King of the Jews".

And if we follow the narrative of the christian faith, Jesus died on the cross for the sins and redemption of all humankind. Ergo, if his death was the will of god, a christian cannot take revenge for this, as it must have happened exactly as intended.

With any form of logical thinking, you also cannot possibly make a connection between your jewish neighbor today, and something that happened one or two thousand years ago.

Muslims -btw- have the same grudge, since Jesus is one of the highest prophets in the Quran, under the name "Issa". The difference is that Muhammad did not believe that Issa was actually killed, but the jews and romans suffered a delusion that they did (because man does not simply kill the son of god).



And on the other hand, as detailed above, both christians and muslims had actually come to accept the Jews, in one way or another. After all both were aware that their own faiths are derived from Judaism.

The difference being that the catholics were so intolerant that exceptions from the tolerance were quite common, and increasingly worsened over time.

So there is no "one size fits all" solution for a game like this.

Unfortunate not so fun fact: Muslims also believe, as described in the Quran, that a Jewish Tribe outside of Mecca conspired to kill Mohammad, and that in retaliation he and his followers killed all of the men and took the women and children as slaves.

They effectively have/had the same grievance as Catholocism, albeit redirected to a new person.

[MalteseFalcon]

Originally posted by HaziTru:

Originally posted by Tethryss:

Jews were most certainly despised in the medieval era unfortunately.
The jewish populace was so negatively viewed, that massacres took place when famine or epidemics started and in many instances Jews were stripped of property and in some cases even expelled from the country for reasons that varied from false accusations of theft, religious persecution and even just refusal to repay the loans the crown had obtained from jewish communities.

To say that the Arabs were tolerant and kind to the jews is also not fully accurate. YES they did tolerate the jews, but it was more a "You keep to yourself, do not expect to pay worship in our shared holy sites and you better not stir up problems and pay the Jizya."

I would have to make this post paragraphs long, but to say that the Jews were viewed as fine in the medieval ages is simply ignorant and wrong.

No one was really fine in the Middle Ages when it came to different religions. Jews and Jewish were two different people and cultures. The Jewish were Europeans while the Jews were from the middle east and Africa so here I'm speaking of the Jews, but thats a whole different conversation.

They were seen as a lower class of people but the whole world did not consider them evil and hated them and wouldn't marry is what i'm saying. In CK3 legit every race and culture considers them evil and you cant even marry outside your own demese, or have decent Diplomacy with anyone.

The Jews were a big part of Spain history working together with the Moors and having interfaith marriages. Also the Jews in Axum were actually really liked and had a good relation with the Coptics.

Jews and Jewish were not, and have never been, separate things and have not been considered as such by the Jewish community. Do you have a source?

Jews in Europe, North Africa, The Middle East, Ethiopia, India, and at one point Central Asia, all considered themselves part of the same group in diaspora. It's why Jewish groups in Eastern Europe, the Ottoman Empire, and the Maghreb absorbed Jews from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition and Jews from India absorbed Jews from the Netherlands during similar purges.

Jews are historically endogamous and almost exclusively do not marry out of their own group. It is why all Jewish groups, regardless of region, share genetic markers.
Similarly, Jewish men were never legally allowed to marry or have sex with Muslim women in any Islamic Empire, and Jewish women could be married off only because their children would be considered Muslim. There were multiple major pogroms staged by the Moors in Spain against the Jewish community, by the way.