Why does everyone consider the Jews evil

[HaziTru]

Christians actually praised Jews for having the pure blood line of David back then. Jews lived amongst Christians in Spain, Coptic east Africa and the Roman empire. Not sure why in CK3 there considered evil. Not historically accurate, even the Muslims were cool with jews and allowed them to have there own towns and communities in the Arab countries. I guess I have to go into the .ini files and fix this myself.

[AC Denton]

I play with mods like EK2, Princes of Darkness etc more than the base game honestly. So I really don't remember the Jews ever being hated by the other groups in this game. I can't think of a single popup related to it

[Ashling]

German Crusade of 1096,

By game logic, they have to be at least hostile for a crusade.
Edit: it would be interesting if religion had a more flow-y relationship though. Maybe like a antisemitism meter. . . Wait, no.
Just, if there was a way to be friends with any/a specific religion through culture that’d be neat.

[Tethryss]

Jews were most certainly despised in the medieval era unfortunately.
The jewish populace was so negatively viewed, that massacres took place when famine or epidemics started and in many instances Jews were stripped of property and in some cases even expelled from the country for reasons that varied from false accusations of theft, religious persecution and even just refusal to repay the loans the crown had obtained from jewish communities.

To say that the Arabs were tolerant and kind to the jews is also not fully accurate. YES they did tolerate the jews, but it was more a "You keep to yourself, do not expect to pay worship in our shared holy sites and you better not stir up problems and pay the Jizya."

I would have to make this post paragraphs long, but to say that the Jews were viewed as fine in the medieval ages is simply ignorant and wrong.

[Kimlin]

Originally posted by Tethryss:

Jews were most certainly despised in the medieval era unfortunately.
The jewish populace was so negatively viewed, that massacres took place when famine or epidemics started and in many instances Jews were stripped of property and in some cases even expelled from the country for reasons that varied from false accusations of theft, religious persecution and even just refusal to repay the loans the crown had obtained from jewish communities.

To say that the Arabs were tolerant and kind to the jews is also not fully accurate. YES they did tolerate the jews, but it was more a "You keep to yourself, do not expect to pay worship in our shared holy sites and you better not stir up problems and pay the Jizya."

I would have to make this post paragraphs long, but to say that the Jews were viewed as fine in the medieval ages is simply ignorant and wrong.

Yes, I completely agree. It’s quite absurd to say they were accepted. Barely tolerated would be more like it.

[VoiD]

If I'm not mistaken they had one very cool interaction in CK2, where jewish lords could marry with both muslins and christians, and in that game no ammount of modifier stacking could do that, so it was a very valuable trait.

[HaziTru]

Originally posted by Tethryss:

Jews were most certainly despised in the medieval era unfortunately.
The jewish populace was so negatively viewed, that massacres took place when famine or epidemics started and in many instances Jews were stripped of property and in some cases even expelled from the country for reasons that varied from false accusations of theft, religious persecution and even just refusal to repay the loans the crown had obtained from jewish communities.

To say that the Arabs were tolerant and kind to the jews is also not fully accurate. YES they did tolerate the jews, but it was more a "You keep to yourself, do not expect to pay worship in our shared holy sites and you better not stir up problems and pay the Jizya."

I would have to make this post paragraphs long, but to say that the Jews were viewed as fine in the medieval ages is simply ignorant and wrong.

No one was really fine in the Middle Ages when it came to different religions. Jews and Jewish were two different people and cultures. The Jewish were Europeans while the Jews were from the middle east and Africa so here I'm speaking of the Jews, but thats a whole different conversation.

They were seen as a lower class of people but the whole world did not consider them evil and hated them and wouldn't marry is what i'm saying. In CK3 legit every race and culture considers them evil and you cant even marry outside your own demese, or have decent Diplomacy with anyone.

The Jews were a big part of Spain history working together with the Moors and having interfaith marriages. Also the Jews in Axum were actually really liked and had a good relation with the Coptics.

[Duilf]

"Evil" in this game is directly a religious thing. So we are talking about the Jewish faith not any culture. The big split between Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths is why the Messiah is. It is such a key point to each faith that no matter how similar they may seem spiritually they directly contradict each other. For example Jewish faiths believe the Messiah hasn't come yet as it will be obvious when they do so follow the guidelines of the Torah, and Christians well Christ said "I am the Lord, your God. Whoever believes in me shall not parish, but have everlasting life". See the contradiction there? From ether perspective the other is Hell bound based on principle. So an attempt to save the other group would come across as damning to other members of that group, and leaders/backers of a faith would see active conversion away from their faith as threats to their power.

[HaziTru]

Originally posted by Duilf:

"Evil" in this game is directly a religious thing. So we are talking about the Jewish faith not any culture. The big split between Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths is why the Messiah is. It is such a key point to each faith that no matter how similar they may seem spiritually they directly contradict each other. For example Jewish faiths believe the Messiah hasn't come yet as it will be obvious when they do so follow the guidelines of the Torah, and Christians well Christ said "I am the Lord, your God. Whoever believes in me shall not parish, but have everlasting life". See the contradiction there? From ether perspective the other is Hell bound based on principle. So an attempt to save the other group would come across as damning to other members of that group, and leaders/backers of a faith would see active conversion away from their faith as threats to their power.

That's the Jewish Doctrine, as i said being Jewish and Being a Jew are two completely different things. One is a religion and the other is a holy bloodline. Being a Jew wasn't a religion back then its a culture and they did believe in Jesus they just said that they descended from the seed of David and are the biblical Hebrews.

Most of the Jews were Christians who could trace their lineage back to David and Solomon and considered themselves a chosen race. Many other cultures went to war with them because everyone fought over who was the "Chosen or Actual" Hebrews it wasn't really about religion but more of bloodline type of thing.

[Bibliophylax]

lol
In the medieval era artisan jobs were forbidden to them... and both christian and muslim don't really tolerate charging interest.. So the jews were well known to do it.
The only place i know they had more rights is the poland kingdom.
Almost everywhere else Tethryss sum it up very well.

And excuse me Oo? The pure blood of David ?

[DerRitter]

Er, Christians in the past have NEVER praised Jews
They relegated them into segregated ghettos in the cities, forbade them from owning land, and of course the myriad of pogroms.

[CrUsHeR]

I think it is a difficult topic.



Judaism has been part of the european cultures since the Roman Empire. If you look back at the time of Charlemagne, the Jews were still a completely normal and relevant minority of the population. So from a random group of 20 people you couldn't tell who was jewish and who was christian.

However, since the catholic faith has always been messianic and became more and more intolerant and totalitarian over the first millenium, the church could not understand why the Jews did not convert to Christianity.

Think like you run Windows 11, but your friend still uses Windows XP. Or you have a cool E-Car but he still drives an old Diesel. You really, really want him to upgrade to your standard, since you think it's best for him and everyone else.



And it's not like Charlemagne was a tolerant person either, as he actually commited mass murder on the defeated Saxons who refused to convert to christianity.

Anyways - the ancient catholic philosopher and archreactionary Saint Augustine had decided that the Jews shall be tolerated. As he believed that their diaspora fulfilled a biblical prophecy, and they shall stay as a warning for all christians. Kind of like a fossilized dinosaur in the museum reminds us of our own possible extinction.



So that was the status quo, Judaism was a legal minority faith, unlike all the other native faiths and christian heresies of which none survived the middle ages.

But as Triangle already hinted in reply#2 above, tolerance wasn't the reality. Example the first crusade started with an armed mob marching through the Holy Roman Empire, massacring Jews on their path. With pogroms either through the general population or the ruling caste being dated back until at least the Imperial Roman rule over Egypt.

And it only got worse over the centuries, like Jews being obligated to wear a "jew hat" so they can be recognized on sight, and eventually forced to live in seperate quarters which turned into the infamous Ghettos. Martin Luther, known as the liberal church reformer, designated the Jews as the main enemy, right next to the Muslims.

By the 18th century, Jews in many places were no longer permitted to move about freely, and required an official document just to leave their ghettos.

In the 19th century, the german composer Richard Wagner not only wrote very popular music, but also was known for his hatred of Jews.

And in the 20th century, a man named Adolf Hitler was a great fan of Richard Wagner. You could say that Wagner delivered the soundtrack for the Holocaust.



All things considered, i think that the early and high medieval era shouldn't see Judaism as evil. We know that many jews had important positions at court, in trade, administration, medicine and science. So you should be able to e.g. have a jewish Court Physician employed without automatically hating one another.

For muslims it's even less relevant, since we know that both Christians and Jews were considered "Dimmis" and enjoyed a protected status within muslim realms all the way through.

[HaziTru]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

I think it is a difficult topic.



Judaism has been part of the european cultures since the Roman Empire. If you look back at the time of Charlemagne, the Jews were still a completely normal and relevant minority of the population. So from a random group of 20 people you couldn't tell who was jewish and who was christian.

However, since the catholic faith has always been messianic and became more and more intolerant and totalitarian over the first millenium, the church could not understand why the Jews did not convert to Christianity.

Think like you run Windows 11, but your friend still uses Windows XP. Or you have a cool E-Car but he still drives an old Diesel. You really, really want him to upgrade to your standard, since you think it's best for him and everyone else.



And it's not like Charlemagne was a tolerant person either, as he actually commited mass murder on the defeated Saxons who refused to convert to christianity.

However, the ancient catholic philosopher and archreactionary Saint Augustine had decided that the Jews shall be tolerated. As he believed that their diaspora fulfilled a biblical prophecy, and they shall stay as a warning for all christians. Kind of like a fossilized dinosaur in the museum reminds us of our own possible extinction.



So that was the status quo, Judaism was a legal minority faith, unlike all the other native faiths and christian heresies of which none survived the middle ages.

But as Triangle already hinted in reply#2 above, tolerance wasn't the reality. Example the first crusade started with an armed mob marching through the Holy Roman Empire, massacring Jews on their path. With pogroms either through the general population or the ruling caste being dated back until at least the Imperial Roman rule over Egypt.

And it only got worse over the centuries, like Jews being obligated to wear a "jew hat" so they can be recognized on sight, and eventually forced to live in seperate quarters which turned into the infamous Ghettos. Martin Luther, known as the liberal church reformer, designated the Jews as the main enemy, right next to the Muslims.

By the 18th century, Jews in many places were no longer permitted to move about freely, and required an official document just to leave their ghettos.

In the 19th century, the german composer Richard Wagner not only wrote very popular music, but also was known for his hatred of Jews.

And in the 20th century, a man named Adolf Hitler was a great fan of Richard Wagner. You could say that Wagner delivered the soundtrack for the Holocaust.



All things considered, i think that the early and high medieval era shouldn't see Judaism as evil. We know that many jews had important positions at court, in trade, administration, medicine and science. So you should be able to e.g. have a jewish Court Physician employed without automatically hating one another.

For muslims it's even less relevant, since we know that both Christians and Jews were considered "Dimmis" and enjoyed a protected status within muslim realms all the way through.

After Rome conquered Jerusalem they the Jews split in 4 ways. Most of the men were captures and made gladiators in Rome to fight to death or fight wild beast but then eventually spread through out Europe. The others ran into Alexandria and eventually then got caught and ran into Lower Nubia and stayed for a while. The others fled into the middle east and some was slaves and eventually converted Muslim others lived with the Arabs. The last fled towards Persia and Inda lived as nomads always on the go or eventually converted to what ever faith over time. It might be the greatest migration of all time next to the Native Americans.

But I agree they were seen as Lower race but were accepted by the coptics and lived fairly nice. The Catholics were less accepting and did as you said above put them into ghettos and things of that nature.

Your talking of the more modern Jewish religion. That's correct I agree with what you said

[Kimlin]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

I think it is a difficult topic.

All things considered, i think that the early and high medieval era shouldn't see Judaism as evil. We know that many jews had important positions at court, in trade, administration, medicine and science. So you should be able to e.g. have a jewish Court Physician employed without automatically hating one another.

For muslims it's even less relevant, since we know that both Christians and Jews were considered "Dimmis" and enjoyed a protected status within muslim realms all the way through.

While Jews did hold important positions, that really wasn't until high medieval period and late.

This is actually my 10th great grand father. Jacob Bassevi.

As you can read, here even the most powerful of Jews, didn't have it end well.

https://yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Bassevi_of_Treuenberg_Yaakov



In 1622, Bassevi joined with Charles of Lichtenstein, Duke Albrecht of Wallenstein, nobleman Pavel Michna of Vacínov, and a Dutch merchant, Hans de Witte, to form a consortium to operate a mint. Shortly after its organization, however, their profits declined, forcing the owners to produce valueless “long coins” (which contained less silver and more copper). Their actions resulted in bankruptcy and a price rise. Neither de Witte nor Bassevi—who were responsible for the group’s professional activities—were responsible for the failure, but their partners gained enormous profits.


After the death of his main protector, Charles of Lichtenstein, in 1627, Bassevi fell into disfavor with the emperor. Bassevi’s property was confiscated, and he was imprisoned in 1631 and was liberated only after Wallenstein’s intervention. Bassevi then managed to escape to the town of Jičín (in northeast Bohemia), the center of Wallenstein’s domain, where he again engaged in commercial activities.

Bassevi’s life ended shortly after the murder of Wallenstein in 1634. He died in the same year in the central Bohemian town of Mladá Boleslav while fleeing Jičín (he is buried in its Jewish cemetery). Bassevi’s property was confiscated by the emperor, and his impoverished descendants lived in the Prague Jewish ghetto for several decades.

[CrUsHeR]

As i said, it is a truly difficult topic.



The hate for jews is, on one hand, an integral part of the christian history. The argument was always that "the jews betrayed Jesus Christ". Although it wasn't the jews, but the roman occupators of Palestine who crucified him as the "King of the Jews".

And if we follow the narrative of the christian faith, Jesus died on the cross for the sins and redemption of all humankind. Ergo, if his death was the will of god, a christian cannot take revenge for this, as it must have happened exactly as intended.

With any form of logical thinking, you also cannot possibly make a connection between your jewish neighbor today, and something that happened one or two thousand years ago.

Muslims -btw- have the same grudge, since Jesus is one of the highest prophets in the Quran, under the name "Issa". The difference is that Muhammad did not believe that Issa was actually killed, but the jews and romans suffered a delusion that they did (because man does not simply kill the son of god).



And on the other hand, as detailed above, both christians and muslims had actually come to accept the Jews, in one way or another. After all both were aware that their own faiths are derived from Judaism.

The difference being that the catholics were so intolerant that exceptions from the tolerance were quite common, and increasingly worsened over time.

So there is no "one size fits all" solution for a game like this.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by Kimlin:

While Jews did hold important positions, that really wasn't until high medieval period and late.

This is actually my 10th great grand father. Jacob Bassevi.

As you can read, here even the most powerful of Jews, didn't have it end well.

https://yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Bassevi_of_Treuenberg_Yaakov

Thanks for the read. I like history stuff :)

Well that was during the Thirty Years' War, wasn't it? That was a terrible time for the HRE and everyone else involved, the monarchs were just looking everywhere to confiscate money. Obviously this hit the jews the hardest.

I think that's already approaching the era in the 17th century, when the jewish population was effectively living in permanent lockdown in the ghettos. But if we think 1066, things must have been much easier.