GALICIAN-PORTUGUESE INACCURATE SPLIT

[migueldeunha]

Posting that in order to underline the random, totally unhistorical split between galician and portuguese donde in/by game along with several related problems:

-The split itself: While today still a mater of subject if galician and portuguese can be considered seriously a different culture and language between antropogist and linguists, what is not discussed is that, during the middle ages were, at all the same culture, being mostly considered like that until mid 20 century, until when school, sciencies and of course political books usually call "galician" as portuguese (due the obvious prestige of portugal compared with galicia), being also one of the reasons of fascist spanish regime to attack in a special hard way the galician culture as considered foreign to the spanish nation.

-Naming: Names taken by paradox for galician and portuguese are, in portuguese, post-ortographic agreement (1990), and for galician post-Filgueira Decree (1982), what have nothing to do with medieval galician/portuguese.

-About randomly fact: okay, we split the culture, but, according to that "logic", asturleones neighbours should split too as soon leon kingdom is formed between asturian and leones.

-Naming problems: I understand that can be conflictive give to that culture a single galician or portuguese name for some people (personally I dont care how anyone call to my culture as long as do not randomly divide and making unreasonable political experiments) both galician or portuguese names are good for the SINGLE culture. But to avoid any problem can be followed the asturleonese model and be called galiciaportuguese as history books do.


I hope that was solved in the iberian update but I'm seing devs don't care at all about basic accuracy even when is the most agreed historical statement (and by the way, why western and north peniinsula use ARABIC/ANDALUSIAN city models in the new update????)


In the other hand, galician pillars are a real ♥♥♥♥ compared to their neighbours, totally unbalanced and done for a quick destruction of the culture and kingdom/dukies and counties, as the galician kingdom itself is incredibly unbalanced. And and at any point galician monarchy until 1200 with Ferdinand III of Castille used castillian as any kind of language/culture, even less as court one, so wtf is Garcia I cstillian????, latin okay, galician/portuguese okay, but castillian at the moment was a regional language of a tiny county no one care about, no more.



So please, little balance, accuracy and logic here will not hurt anyone, and for galicians and portugueses see how our culture is treated and missinterpreted with any respect is quite hurting.

[Ludicus]

Let me put it this way: political independence of the Portuguese kingdom was a significant event in the evolution of the Portuguese language. I'm not an integrationist. The incorporation of the kingdom of Galicia into the crown of Castile and León would permanently modify the linguistic situation between the north of Portugal (Galicia) and the south (Portugal). I know exactly what Carolina Michaelis said on the broader meaning of the expression Galician -Portuguese, but with the political separation of the Country of Portugal from Galicia, the Galician-Portuguese lost its unity, and slowly became two distinctive languages, and the Portuguese language assumes its own cultural and linguistic identity. The definitive break, regarding the Galician-Portuguese literature occurs in the 14th century.
in fact, political separation was inevitable to be accompanied by linguistic autonomy on both sides, that is to say between Galicia and Portugal: while Portuguese, cut off from its Galician roots, was to incorporate Arabic elements, Galician was to be influenced by the Castilian and Leonese languages.
And btw, language is deeply politicized in Galicia.
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"History of the Galician language
The Galician language developed from Latin in the northwestern part of the Iberian Peninsula. The first documents written in this language appeared in the early Middle Ages (13th century), although it started to develop long before that: early Galician Romance (a local dialect that evolved from Vulgar Latin) had been spoken since the 8th century in the territory of modern Galicia and Portugal, that is, south and north of the River Minho (Consello da Cultura Galega 2006).
PORTUGUESE AND GALICIAN DIVERGED FROM EACH OTHER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 12TH CENTURY WHEN PORTUGAL BECAME AN INDEPENDENT KINGDOM .
By the end of the Middle Ages, Galician came to be used by all the social classes in Galicia, in all spheres of communication (J. del Valle 2000: 107). This was also the golden age of Galician literature: Galician became the language of romantic poetry par excellence of the whole Iberian Peninsula (InternetGalicia.net 2010)”
Source: Reversing Language Shift in Galicia Galicia
http://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:357015/FULLTEXT01.pdf
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“(…) their language remained the same, in its literary form at least, for some time after 1139 and, moreover, became the vehicle for a lyric poetry of the highest order. Much work is still needed on the evolution of the SPOKEN GALICIAN during the first three centuries of Portuguese nationhood, but IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THAT IT SOON STARTED TO DIVERGE FROM THE LANGUAGE OF WHAT HAD BECOME A VIGOROUS AND INCREASINGLY CONFIDENT KINGDOM, WHOSE CENTRE OF GRAVITY WAS TO MOVE FURTHER AND FURTHER SOUTH.
The centralization policy brought about the union of the Kingdoms of Castile (already including Léon and Galicia) exacerbated the process of divergence and is likely to have introduced a new factor in the form of intensification of the influence of Castilian (…)”
Source: Perez-Barreiro Nola , “Which Language for Galicia?”
----
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“Galician-Portuguese was a completely formed language with broadly homogenous written and spoken norms UNTIL TWO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BRANCHES GRADUALLY EMERGED : GALICIAN AND PORTUGUESE, STARTING IN THE THIRTEENTH CENTURY “
Source: European Journal of Applied Linguistics Studies, Vol 4, No 1 (2021) Alex Fan Moniz- Anglia Ruskin University

“The POLITICAL AND LATER SOCIO-CULTURAL DIVISION BETWEEN GALICIA AND PORTUGAL GAVE RISE TO A DIVERGENT EVOLUTION OF THE VARIETIES OF GALICIAN AND PORTUGUESE. Portuguese has enjoyed a lengthy and intense development, while Galician fell into a situation of diglossia in which Castilian played the dominant role”.
Source: The Standardization of Galician: The State of Art, Benigno S. Salgado and Henrique Monteagudo
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About the politicization of the Galician language ,
" In the nineteenth century, as in other places in Europe, certain people and groups in Galicia began to promote the local culture. Language became one of the central points of contention: who speaks our language? Most people involved in this “Galicianist” movement saw Portuguese as a model of integration and Spanish as a model of opposition. Galicia “symbolises an accepted subjugation to the Spanish State as it is the Hispanicised term. On the contrary, “Galiza” indexes resistance, conveying the idea of the oppressed nation standing up against its oppressor”

Source: "Translating Galician Identity: Translational Issues on Rendering Rhetorical and Metaphorical Language in Political Persuasive Texts. Dayán-Fernández 2014 p. 44)

[migueldeunha]

Автор сообщения: Ludicus

Let me put it this way: political independence of the Portuguese kingdom was a significant event in the evolution of the Portuguese language. I'm not an integrationist. The incorporation of the kingdom of Galicia into the crown of Castile and León would permanently modify the linguistic situation between the north of Portugal (Galicia) and the south (Portugal). I know exactly what Carolina Michaelis said on the broader meaning of the expression Galician -Portuguese, but with the political separation of the Country of Portugal from Galicia, the Galician-Portuguese lost its unity, and slowly became two distinctive languages, and the Portuguese language assumes its own cultural and linguistic identity. The definitive break, regarding the Galician-Portuguese literature occurs in the 14th century.
in fact, political separation was inevitable to be accompanied by linguistic autonomy on both sides, that is to say between Galicia and Portugal: while Portuguese, cut off from its Galician roots, was to incorporate Arabic elements, Galician was to be influenced by the Castilian and Leonese languages.
And btw, language is deeply politicized in Galicia.
-----

"History of the Galician language
The Galician language developed from Latin in the northwestern part of the Iberian Peninsula. The first documents written in this language appeared in the early Middle Ages (13th century), although it started to develop long before that: early Galician Romance (a local dialect that evolved from Vulgar Latin) had been spoken since the 8th century in the territory of modern Galicia and Portugal, that is, south and north of the River Minho (Consello da Cultura Galega 2006).
PORTUGUESE AND GALICIAN DIVERGED FROM EACH OTHER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 12TH CENTURY WHEN PORTUGAL BECAME AN INDEPENDENT KINGDOM .
By the end of the Middle Ages, Galician came to be used by all the social classes in Galicia, in all spheres of communication (J. del Valle 2000: 107). This was also the golden age of Galician literature: Galician became the language of romantic poetry par excellence of the whole Iberian Peninsula (InternetGalicia.net 2010)”
Source: Reversing Language Shift in Galicia Galicia
http://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:357015/FULLTEXT01.pdf
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-----

“(…) their language remained the same, in its literary form at least, for some time after 1139 and, moreover, became the vehicle for a lyric poetry of the highest order. Much work is still needed on the evolution of the SPOKEN GALICIAN during the first three centuries of Portuguese nationhood, but IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THAT IT SOON STARTED TO DIVERGE FROM THE LANGUAGE OF WHAT HAD BECOME A VIGOROUS AND INCREASINGLY CONFIDENT KINGDOM, WHOSE CENTRE OF GRAVITY WAS TO MOVE FURTHER AND FURTHER SOUTH.
The centralization policy brought about the union of the Kingdoms of Castile (already including Léon and Galicia) exacerbated the process of divergence and is likely to have introduced a new factor in the form of intensification of the influence of Castilian (…)”
Source: Perez-Barreiro Nola , “Which Language for Galicia?”
----
---
“Galician-Portuguese was a completely formed language with broadly homogenous written and spoken norms UNTIL TWO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BRANCHES GRADUALLY EMERGED : GALICIAN AND PORTUGUESE, STARTING IN THE THIRTEENTH CENTURY “
Source: European Journal of Applied Linguistics Studies, Vol 4, No 1 (2021) Alex Fan Moniz- Anglia Ruskin University

“The POLITICAL AND LATER SOCIO-CULTURAL DIVISION BETWEEN GALICIA AND PORTUGAL GAVE RISE TO A DIVERGENT EVOLUTION OF THE VARIETIES OF GALICIAN AND PORTUGUESE. Portuguese has enjoyed a lengthy and intense development, while Galician fell into a situation of diglossia in which Castilian played the dominant role”.
Source: The Standardization of Galician: The State of Art, Benigno S. Salgado and Henrique Monteagudo
----
---
About the politicization of the Galician language ,
" In the nineteenth century, as in other places in Europe, certain people and groups in Galicia began to promote the local culture. Language became one of the central points of contention: who speaks our language? Most people involved in this “Galicianist” movement saw Portuguese as a model of integration and Spanish as a model of opposition. Galicia “symbolises an accepted subjugation to the Spanish State as it is the Hispanicised term. On the contrary, “Galiza” indexes resistance, conveying the idea of the oppressed nation standing up against its oppressor”

Source: "Translating Galician Identity: Translational Issues on Rendering Rhetorical and Metaphorical Language in Political Persuasive Texts. Dayán-Fernández 2014 p. 44)

"Permanently modify", after that "integration" galicia were integrated, reintegrated and desintegrated an incredible number of times both in Portugal, Leon and Castille, during a lapse of 400 years since portuguese independence, not to speak about the almost independent reality of galician lords and towns in which the only real autority used to be the church.

We have seen texts of the 17th century in which galician is clearly considered a territory of the "portuguese" language, having serious conflict when comes to stop using medieval writting forms by the officials, what means that very after middle ages the language was not taken as a different one.

I can understand your arguments if refering at the very modern forms of both languages, in which case even "brazilian" according to your very excluding patterns should be considered a different language also, but we are not discussing about cohexion or disgregation of modern galician-portuguese dyasistem. We are discussing about middle ages language, very acepted as a single way.

Of course galician is very politicied, that's why today are appearing those new lines of though as any resemblance to outside spain is considered insidius andseccessionist in the extensive resourgence of spanish fascism. But recognise that galician and portuguese were a single language "until" very recently have nothing to do with modern politics.

There are also lot of samples of independent political identities that share language and culture, and that independence never result in a sudden (400 years is very sudden when no real outsider influence) culture split. And castillian influence in gallicia were barely non existant until the most agressive political project of Isabel I and Olivares Count, and even after that just affect to some very high aristocracy groups, what do not means anything to the common populations (that just happened with the Industrial revolution and later)


You mention the gravity influence points; portugal was not a gravity center, neither galicia, thos were Corunha, Compostela, Braga, Porto, Coimbra and Lisbon; that means main religious centers, Braga (with extensive holdings in galicia) and Compostela, as well main trade centers. Not the "division" of a kingdom.


In the same way diglossia was not a thing in galicia as never affect the population, neither nobility, neither ecclesisatical autorities (as foreign spanish archebisp, already knew galician and was only not used with crown communications), not with their own subjects. Diglossia started with a massive substitution of monacal holders in late Hasburg times and with the arrival of the Bourbons. And as was said, portuguese frontier never means something in galicia as was totally permeable, even with big armies as there are several examples during 14-15 centuries, not to talk about commoners going to "feiras", that was the main travel any passeant would do in his lifespan (normally no more than 50km distance, so if we have not a language each 50 km, ehem, this split is totally random) etc. Also, the common galician noble spend a time serving portuguese crown at some point of his life.

"Confident kingdom" heavy argument hum. I mean, during 19th century and later were needed translators to the spanish autorities so, u can imagine

And the fact of taking the neutral point as the isolationism and the integrationism as the extreme is by himself quite significative, specially when integrationism was the universitary and "studied opinion" until Alianza Popular decides that an Asturian spanish filologist who didn't know galician should invent a new normative for galician ignoring all Compostela university galician doctors in filology.

After that, and as I said, I dont care about your opinion of modern dialects/languages, as are modern not medieval, don't you think that if the split was that ancient as you said, shoul not be possible take any galician or portuguese text and changing to other language by just changing a few graphemes? Should be much more different. And further south more unintelligible, but curiously is not like that. As they will say in Alentejo: Hoje comí(n), carne, in almost all galician varieties, Hoxe comín carne. (the nassal n at the end of the verbs is a common trace of southern portuguese accents).

You are saying that due a few arabic word (gonna ignore mozarabic argument as latin language) the language change, according that chilean spanish should be some crazy italo-chinese unrelated to spanish language, and the only word used in all portuguese countries for leituga should be alfaçe, but happen that in portugal leituga is used, as in brazil. And of course, in galicia we have a HUGE amount of arabic words.



De vdde non entendo pq caralho queres facer da nosa lingua medieval unha outra diferente por t desmarcares dunha corrente de pensamento ligada ao independentismo, non falamos de hoxe, falamos de 500 anos atrás, e recoñecer que daquela, até non moito a lingua era a mesma, non vai mudar nen a existencia do independentismo, nen a realidade do estado español, e simplesmente un feito recoñecido internacionalmente unicamente negado por algúns nacionalistas casposos por simples odio. Esta ben que hoxe podamos ser realidades diferentes, mas a influencia do estado no movemento e relaciós da povoación ate ben entrado o século XIX e notavelmente nula. E hoxe é bastante discutivel consideralas linguas diferentes se consideramos outras como o español arxentino, o frances do quebec ou o alemán da suiza ser a mesma. Se hoxe é asín q vamos dicir de 600 anos atrás, toda diferencia sería semellante á do castelán da meseta co castelán de cualquer area de andalucía, e non as considermos linguas distintas.

[migueldeunha]

Автор сообщения: Ludicus

Let me put it this way: political independence of the Portuguese kingdom was a significant event in the evolution of the Portuguese language. I'm not an integrationist. The incorporation of the kingdom of Galicia into the crown of Castile and León would permanently modify the linguistic situation between the north of Portugal (Galicia) and the south (Portugal). I know exactly what Carolina Michaelis said on the broader meaning of the expression Galician -Portuguese, but with the political separation of the Country of Portugal from Galicia, the Galician-Portuguese lost its unity, and slowly became two distinctive languages, and the Portuguese language assumes its own cultural and linguistic identity. The definitive break, regarding the Galician-Portuguese literature occurs in the 14th century.
in fact, political separation was inevitable to be accompanied by linguistic autonomy on both sides, that is to say between Galicia and Portugal: while Portuguese, cut off from its Galician roots, was to incorporate Arabic elements, Galician was to be influenced by the Castilian and Leonese languages.
And btw, language is deeply politicized in Galicia.
-----

"History of the Galician language
The Galician language developed from Latin in the northwestern part of the Iberian Peninsula. The first documents written in this language appeared in the early Middle Ages (13th century), although it started to develop long before that: early Galician Romance (a local dialect that evolved from Vulgar Latin) had been spoken since the 8th century in the territory of modern Galicia and Portugal, that is, south and north of the River Minho (Consello da Cultura Galega 2006).
PORTUGUESE AND GALICIAN DIVERGED FROM EACH OTHER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 12TH CENTURY WHEN PORTUGAL BECAME AN INDEPENDENT KINGDOM .
By the end of the Middle Ages, Galician came to be used by all the social classes in Galicia, in all spheres of communication (J. del Valle 2000: 107). This was also the golden age of Galician literature: Galician became the language of romantic poetry par excellence of the whole Iberian Peninsula (InternetGalicia.net 2010)”
Source: Reversing Language Shift in Galicia Galicia
http://liu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:357015/FULLTEXT01.pdf
-----
-----

“(…) their language remained the same, in its literary form at least, for some time after 1139 and, moreover, became the vehicle for a lyric poetry of the highest order. Much work is still needed on the evolution of the SPOKEN GALICIAN during the first three centuries of Portuguese nationhood, but IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME THAT IT SOON STARTED TO DIVERGE FROM THE LANGUAGE OF WHAT HAD BECOME A VIGOROUS AND INCREASINGLY CONFIDENT KINGDOM, WHOSE CENTRE OF GRAVITY WAS TO MOVE FURTHER AND FURTHER SOUTH.
The centralization policy brought about the union of the Kingdoms of Castile (already including Léon and Galicia) exacerbated the process of divergence and is likely to have introduced a new factor in the form of intensification of the influence of Castilian (…)”
Source: Perez-Barreiro Nola , “Which Language for Galicia?”
----
---
“Galician-Portuguese was a completely formed language with broadly homogenous written and spoken norms UNTIL TWO SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT BRANCHES GRADUALLY EMERGED : GALICIAN AND PORTUGUESE, STARTING IN THE THIRTEENTH CENTURY “
Source: European Journal of Applied Linguistics Studies, Vol 4, No 1 (2021) Alex Fan Moniz- Anglia Ruskin University

“The POLITICAL AND LATER SOCIO-CULTURAL DIVISION BETWEEN GALICIA AND PORTUGAL GAVE RISE TO A DIVERGENT EVOLUTION OF THE VARIETIES OF GALICIAN AND PORTUGUESE. Portuguese has enjoyed a lengthy and intense development, while Galician fell into a situation of diglossia in which Castilian played the dominant role”.
Source: The Standardization of Galician: The State of Art, Benigno S. Salgado and Henrique Monteagudo
----
---
About the politicization of the Galician language ,
" In the nineteenth century, as in other places in Europe, certain people and groups in Galicia began to promote the local culture. Language became one of the central points of contention: who speaks our language? Most people involved in this “Galicianist” movement saw Portuguese as a model of integration and Spanish as a model of opposition. Galicia “symbolises an accepted subjugation to the Spanish State as it is the Hispanicised term. On the contrary, “Galiza” indexes resistance, conveying the idea of the oppressed nation standing up against its oppressor”

Source: "Translating Galician Identity: Translational Issues on Rendering Rhetorical and Metaphorical Language in Political Persuasive Texts. Dayán-Fernández 2014 p. 44)

Just imagine how much means the portuguese independence in the internal galician-portuguese relations that a 19 century galician song is a folk song in both countries with exactly the same lyrics (just to mention one):

GL - A saia da Carolina, ten un lagarto pintado, c(u)ando a carolina baila, o lagarto dalle ao rabo

PT - A saia da Carolina, tem um lagarto pintado; quando a Carolina baila, o lagarto dalhe ao rabo

Not to talk about "O Sacristán de Coimbra". that is Coimbra (portuguese town, surprise).

Seriously, take them as a different language when today remain almost the same is just having a huge filter for some ones but a really tinny for others. And said that portugal independence just make them cut relations iseven worst;


By the way, we had a little republic in Santiago de Rubiás, independent from ate least 11th century, why they don't speak "coutomistés" or "Rubianés"???


And if u hear a london english speaker and u compare to any other english english speaker, betwen, Soh-hi, cah hu leh-meh a bo-haa oh- wah-ah, and sorry can you let me a bottle of water, there is a world. But I don't hear anyone claiming london independent language.

So the same rules for every one, not having special ones because, oush we are galicians, gonna try to avoid hurting spanish unity feeling. If "vós sós un huevon" is the saome as "eres estudúpido", "vai p'o caralho" is harder the same as "vai po carallo" or "Qual é o melhor dia p(a)ra casar//Sem sofrer nenhum desgosto//O trinta e um de Julho//Porque depois entra Agosto" is the same as "C(u)al é o mellor día p(a)ra casar//Sen sofrer nengún desgosto//O trinta e un de Xullo//Porque de(s)pois entra Agosto".

You must be jocking to tell that 500 years ago, before today "huge differences", that was a different language.

And I think no one like anyone joking about his own culture

Se es galego, pensa o que estás a defender, o absolutamente irracional que é, e o dano que fai á tua lingua e cultura, alén da imáxe d cultura sen importancia e marxinal q fica a nivel internacional con ise discurso.

[Ludicus]

Roteiro de História da Língua Portuguesa
https://dspace.uevora.pt/rdpc/handle/10174/22196
In Portuguese,
“(...) Assim, a reconquista cristã, a partir do séc. IX, acompanha o “ciclo da formação da língua” – sécs. IX-XV (Castro 2006: 74ss) – durante o qual o galego-português do norte é transplantado para sul, ganha um espaço nacional, no séc. XII, com a formação do reino de Portugal, uma forma escrita, a partir de meados do séc. XII ou inícios do séc. XIII, e, pela mesma época, começa a afastar-se do galego...
(...)persiste a polémica entre aqueles que acreditam terem o galego e o português iniciado a sua separação logo a partir da constituição dos reinos peninsulares, no séc. XII, considerando a separação política o primeiro passo para a separação linguística, e os que defendem que a unidade permanece ainda hoje...
... De qualquer forma, quer o processo de separação tenha começado nesta época ou mais tarde, pode aceitar-se como relativamente consensual que, no final do ciclo de formação da língua, que coincide, grosso modo, com o final do período trovadoresco (não é por acaso que, ao período a que Cintra chama português antigo, chama Pilar Vázquez Cuesta galego-português e Serafim da Silva Neto trovadoresco), o galego estaria já definitivamente separado do português, podendo considerar-se, a partir daí, como uma língua românica autónoma”

In English, summary.

"The Portuguese language, from the mid-12th or early 13th century, and, around the same time, begins to move away from Galician.
It is relatively consensual that at the end of the language's formation cycle, which roughly coincides with the end of the troubadour period (it is no coincidence that the period that Cintra calls Old Portuguese is called Galician-Portuguese by Pilar Vázquez Cuesta and the troubadour period by Serafim da Silva Neto), Galician would already be definitively separated from Portuguese, and from then on could be considered an autonomous Romance language"
---
--
To conclude:
There is no doubt that political separation is the first step to linguistic separation. There are those (politically motivated) who argue that unity remains even today, Portuguese language distanced itself from Galician to the north, after the existence of a Portuguese kingdom. The Portuguese is the result of the contact between Galician and the Mozarabic dialects spoken, above all, in Lisbon.
Prof. Oliveira Marques, History of Portugal,
“By the 11th and 12th centuries, when the Mondego and then the Tagus had been definitively crossed by the Christian armies, Galician-Portuguese and Lusitanian-Mozarabic came in direct and permanent contact. It was from this encounter that the Portuguese language was born”.
As simple as that. It’s not very complicated.

[Bmorekareful]

long winded af

[migueldeunha]

Автор сообщения: Ludicus

Roteiro de História da Língua Portuguesa
https://dspace.uevora.pt/rdpc/handle/10174/22196
In Portuguese,
“(...) Assim, a reconquista cristã, a partir do séc. IX, acompanha o “ciclo da formação da língua” – sécs. IX-XV (Castro 2006: 74ss) – durante o qual o galego-português do norte é transplantado para sul, ganha um espaço nacional, no séc. XII, com a formação do reino de Portugal, uma forma escrita, a partir de meados do séc. XII ou inícios do séc. XIII, e, pela mesma época, começa a afastar-se do galego...
(...)persiste a polémica entre aqueles que acreditam terem o galego e o português iniciado a sua separação logo a partir da constituição dos reinos peninsulares, no séc. XII, considerando a separação política o primeiro passo para a separação linguística, e os que defendem que a unidade permanece ainda hoje...
... De qualquer forma, quer o processo de separação tenha começado nesta época ou mais tarde, pode aceitar-se como relativamente consensual que, no final do ciclo de formação da língua, que coincide, grosso modo, com o final do período trovadoresco (não é por acaso que, ao período a que Cintra chama português antigo, chama Pilar Vázquez Cuesta galego-português e Serafim da Silva Neto trovadoresco), o galego estaria já definitivamente separado do português, podendo considerar-se, a partir daí, como uma língua românica autónoma”

In English, summary.

"The Portuguese language, from the mid-12th or early 13th century, and, around the same time, begins to move away from Galician.
It is relatively consensual that at the end of the language's formation cycle, which roughly coincides with the end of the troubadour period (it is no coincidence that the period that Cintra calls Old Portuguese is called Galician-Portuguese by Pilar Vázquez Cuesta and the troubadour period by Serafim da Silva Neto), Galician would already be definitively separated from Portuguese, and from then on could be considered an autonomous Romance language"
---
--
To conclude:
There is no doubt that political separation is the first step to linguistic separation. There are those (politically motivated) who argue that unity remains even today, Portuguese language distanced itself from Galician to the north, after the existence of a Portuguese kingdom. The Portuguese is the result of the contact between Galician and the Mozarabic dialects spoken, above all, in Lisbon.
Prof. Oliveira Marques, History of Portugal,
“By the 11th and 12th centuries, when the Mondego and then the Tagus had been definitively crossed by the Christian armies, Galician-Portuguese and Lusitanian-Mozarabic came in direct and permanent contact. It was from this encounter that the Portuguese language was born”.
As simple as that. It’s not very complicated.

LOGICAL (and basic history) SUMMARY:

-Golden galician-portuguese literature era is the trobadouresque period, that's a step, this period in its golden age is from late 13rd century, with Fernao Esquio, Gomes Charinho, D. Dinis (king of Port.), Afonso X (king of Cast.) etc. up to early 16th century with leftovers until late 16th century bouth in galicia and portugal with works as Lamento da Frouseyra. This period cover all the middle ages AFTER portuguese independence.

-The influence of the mozarabic languages, and medieval dialectology of our language is not the simple north-south continium. The only place were mozarabics were more or less integrated were center portugal (Coimbra and Lisbon), being north repopulated by galicians in a very early period, and southern areas, suffering the expulsion or migration of previous populations and heavily repopulated with galicians (understanding the term as modern galicia and irredent area and minho-mondego portucalese county).

But that mozarabic phenomena was present in all iberia, and I don't see toletan culture anywere, neither valencian, becouse they are just regional variations despite have heavier mozarabic influence. As galician-portuguese.

-As said several times, in cultural terms, and linguistical, portuguese independence means nothing. the real power was in the hands of direct counts and other nobles that were the link between the king (or the powerfull regional lord in galician case) and the population, and in this sense Galicia was always divided between northern Trava and Castro and Southern, Vimara family and Borgonha. As well eclesiastically divided between Compostela and Braga, so if the thing were as u say, galician and portuguese should never have been a culture, and todday should have more or less the same distance as portuguese and castillian, but is not the case. In the other hand as u must know, all portuguese families with a few exceptions are galicians reaching portugal in several stages, before the independence, Vimara, Limia etc. After, Castro, Lemos, Andrade (most of them) continuing with a political intermarriage tradition never broken by the independence as well serving portuguese kings, from being in their court, army, administration and marine to overthrone spanish kings and proclaim portuguese ones.


-Returning to mozarabic and what I think is the main point, you want to use a micro-regionalism with some cultures, while others using a macro-regionalism instead as "andalusian" (merging andalusi arabic, mozarabic (romance) and local berber communities) , persian or butr cultures for example. While the logical point, specialy if the game uses that macro-regionalism is treat cultures with the same rules, not that much as those samples, but don't doing that inaccurate split, and if so, doing with all cultures of the family at least. So where are cantabrian-toletian, catalonian-valencian-balearic, navarrese-aragonese, asturian-leonese etc.? Just our culture gonaa be randomly and unhistorically splited, why?


To finish with the argument, could you distinguish which one of those late 13th to 15th centuries texts is "galician" and which one is "portuguese" (I'm using some very standarized formulas and words so is easier to you support your point)?

- Sabham todos como na Era de mill e quatrocentos e viinte e nove annos
viinte e quatro dias de Mayo na cidade...

- Sabham quantos esta procuraçom virem como quinta-feira pela manhãa viinte e
nove dias de Março Era de mil trezentos e seteenta e nove anos...

- Sabham todos que no anno da Era de mill et quatroçentos et sete annos quinse dias do mes de deçenbro na vila de...

- ...que sabham todus o mui grand ' amor...

- Sabam quantos esta carta virem conmo nos frey Migel abbade...


If u are honest with yourself don't search them in google

[migueldeunha]

Автор сообщения: Ludicus

Автор сообщения: migueldeunha

So, Dom Henriques get the "independence" and a new language appears or start changing, the answer is NO, as the geography and human relations remain the same

As I said, the process of differentiation between the Portuguese and Portuguese-Galician gradually- gradually, I repeat, began with the Christian advance towards the south of the Iberian Peninsula.

"(...) Sabe-se que a separação política consumada na primeira metade do século XII não produziu diferenças linguísticas imediatas entre os falares usados ao norte e ao sul do rio Minho, mas pouco a pouco foram sendo criadas as condições para que cada região pudesse desenvolver e cultivar as suas diferenças, mesmo no campo do código culto e escrito. Portanto, segundo Mariño Paz (1999: 107),quando na segunda metade do século XIII começou-se a escrever regularmente na língua romance galego-português, entre os textos produzidos ao norte e ao sul do rio Minho, existiam já certas diferenças linguísticas que, em alguns casos, eram simplesmente a manifestação de diferenças dialetais e, em outros casos, podem ter sido produzidas pelas distintas tradições escriturárias dos escrivães de cada localidade. Aspecto este que também é frisado por Maia (1986, p. 940), após a sua análise em manuscritos do período, notado pelas diferentes tradições gráficas. Entretanto, fato é que estas diferenças se aguçaram e se consolidaram nos séculos XIV e XV, a partir dos quais já existem duas línguas diferentes que se desenvolveram com dois rumos total-mente distinto"

Source, A DIVISÃO DO GALEGO-PORTUGUÊS EM PORTUGUÊS E GALEGO,DUAS LÍNGUAS COM A MESMA ORIGEM Nilsa Areán-García (USP)
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Gradually, my friend, "empezaron las diferencias"...

"(...) Máis adiante, Lorenzo (1995: 650) insiste en que só trala independencia de Portugal a comunidade lingüística, xeográfica e cultural formada polos territorios que ocupan aactual Galicia e o norte de Portugal «quedó cortada políticamente en una época primitiva y, como consecuencia de ello, empezaron las diferencias», sobre todo desde que se levou a capital de Portugal para Lisboa"

Source, "Sobre a Gallaecia Magna e as relación históricas e xeolingüísticas entre galego, portugués e asturiano" Dubert-Garcia

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" Portugal, gallego-português nas suas origens,integrado com sangue mozarabico, vai converter-se lentamente converter lentamente numa nacionalidade nova, como genio seu e missão individual" (Carolina Michaëlis 1904:780)

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"En efecto, ao longo do século XVI o proceso de desgaleguización entra nunha fase cualitativamente distinta. Non é de estrañar, por tanto, que na Gramatica dalingua portuguesa (1540) de João de Barros a escrita e a pronuncia galegas aparezan desautorizadas: “nam me pareceria mal desterrármos de nos esta prolaçam e orthografia galegas”
Xa ao final do período renancentista, na Origem da lingoa portuguesa
(1606), Duarte Nunez de Lião afrma explicitamente a independencia do portugués
verbo do galego."
Source, "A lingua no tempo, os tempos da lingua. O galego, entre o portugués e o castelán" Henrique Montea.

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Автор сообщения: Flybox

the game's culture system is what the developers came up with as a way to approximate the cultural differences between different people while still staying within the mechanical limits set by the context of a video game

The developers did it very well.Why are people always looking for something to complain about?

I mean, if u want to diverge portuguese from galician, but as player, with the natural mechanics of the game, which gonna take much longer, being more accurate to your ""historical" point of view/concept", that's perfect, gonna be even more natural, but tsuddenly force that conversion from a year to other BEFORE galician-portuguese golden age, is just crazy as hell.

And in that sense will be nice to suggest some court even related with this cultural golden age and poetry tradition in the shape of some events allowing non-galiciaportuguese lords to take as their court culture galicianportuguese as was some kind of fashion in some areas during 13rd to 14th centuries.