Paradox starting to lose RP value?

[SpiffyGonzales]

Anybody feel like more and more Paradox is focusing on giving players new ways to "win" the game rather than roleplay? This and stellaris seem to both go in that direction. Not to say that they don't have roleplay value, there's a ton. But with Stellaris when the new DLC came out I thought it would be new ways to roleplay religion, but instead it just doubled down on the 40Kish religion it has and instead gave you new "bonuses" and ways to USE that 40K reigion to get X resource or boost Y stat. And with Crusader Kings (this is the first CK ive played) it feels sort of the same. Aside from trying to take the map slowly and not die to a scenario... what is there to actually DO?

When I say roleplay I know there's text trees with choices and paragraphs of things to read, but that's more living in pre-made roles rather than actually getting to make your own. It's like playing D&D but rather than "what do you do" the DM asks "Do you do A,B, or C action?". Ultimately, even if you WANT to roleplay, you simply end up choosing what gives you the best stat increases.

Anybody else feel that way? Or am I seriously missing the mark and if so what should I do to immerse myself more into the RP side of things?

[The Former]

Terry původně napsal:

пьяница původně napsal:

If there are multiple ways to cut a pizza and you have too choose one, that is restriction because you know what's on the pizza?

There are multiple ways to cut the pizza but you have to choose one that was already chosen for you, you just get to cut it.

But you don't. They only visualize the characters and provide a basic event framework. When I see my character and his son looking shocked over the backdrop of a forest, and I read the text telling me that my son has killed a woman while we were hunting - perhaps by accident, perhaps intentionally - I carry that forward with imagination.

I envision my calm, trusting character assuring his wroth, paranoid son pleading his case, continually adding more to the story in frantic tones bordering between fury and terror, all while my character tries to calm him with gestures of the hands and assure him it's alright, and that he's belived.

And then the scene evolves when the rest of the hunting party shows up.

[Maison De Cornusiac]

Lockfågel, the Paradox Knight původně napsal:

The moral of the story? Play to character and drama, not to optimal choices, and roleplaying is alive and well. It's all a matter of choice.

I am also trying to roleplay as much as possible. Unfortunately, I have my weak moments. That is when I have a glimpse what the result would be and I act according to getting least bad result.
it would help if the consequences of our doings would not instantly be visible (I am glad when there are 'chances' for x or y shown so still no clear outcome, BUT....), the urge is strong to check before taking a choice and not run into misery.

I think it would be great if Paradox gave us an option to keep the outcome hidden, for full plate roleplay, as characters in their world of course have no idea what happens when they do this or that.
In exchange maybe an option more than others get, or whatever else lure which I now can't think of.

[CrUsHeR]

Gotta agree.

Example the hybrid cultures are way too easy to form, and more like a "map painting tool" than anything else.

Combined with the custom faiths, they literally destroy the roleplay element, where you play a ruler of a certain historical faith and culture.

Everything becomes exchangable, meaningless.




And there are other RC elements, like the Seneschal effectively removing the need of exercising Overseer lifestyle to increase control. Then you also don't need your marshal to increase control either, and he can manage royal guards, which makes all plots against you effectively 5% power and secrecy.

[DinoMight]

VoiD původně napsal:

It's odd that Stellaris has way more RP value than CK3, even though it doesn't focus on this, at all. In CK3 you'll be seeing several of the exact same events and dilemas within the same ruler's lifespan, in a way RC made this issue even worse as now we're seeing several of the same events, in court, within a single ruler's lifespan.

That being said, it's a paradox game, so don't buy the lie that this isn't a goal oriented map painting game, it is, it's just bad at it as it lacks any challenges or difficulty, which heavily degrades the game's quality, which you could, sort of, roleplay in most/all of these games, this isn't the focus, and none of them are any good at it, people really have to force themselves to play poorly to pretend they are roleplaying something.

thank you, thank you thank you thank you

thank you so much my man, you said it brilliantly, if only i was so good at wording the real troubles and problems i/we are going through as you

thank you for being so eloquent and concise, and for speaking from soul

[DinoMight]

Lockfågel, the Paradox Knight původně napsal:

Terry původně napsal:

There are multiple ways to cut the pizza but you have to choose one that was already chosen for you, you just get to cut it.

But you don't. They only visualize the characters and provide a basic event framework. When I see my character and his son looking shocked over the backdrop of a forest, and I read the text telling me that my son has killed a woman while we were hunting - perhaps by accident, perhaps intentionally - I carry that forward with imagination.

I envision my calm, trusting character assuring his wroth, paranoid son pleading his case, continually adding more to the story in frantic tones bordering between fury and terror, all while my character tries to calm him with gestures of the hands and assure him it's alright, and that he's belived.

And then the scene evolves when the rest of the hunting party shows up.

perfect example, and how do you feel/role play after you get that same event with your every heir and they all have murderer trait, and it happens with every run with every starting ruler in any region, same text
and even personality traits dont matter, it can proc anyways
those same father and son you envision can be paranoid father dealing with his calm son and its the same

[Ashling]

SpiffyGonzales původně napsal:

I know there's text trees with choices and paragraphs of things to read, but that's more living in pre-made roles rather

Fun fact, a lot of text in this game is computer generated giving unique text based on who you are, who's the character you're interacting with, and what's the relationship between the two.

I think it's an amazing effort on par with the computer generated music in System Shock. But like System Shock, most people don't notice the generated text because the pre-rendered stuff is way too expansive making the dynamic bits hard to notice, and it's just plain easy to miss in all the noise.

Cool system, I love it, I hope they never do it for any other game.

пьяница původně napsal:

Why play the game at all if all you need is you and your thoughts?

What other people have to say is interesting and thought provoking. After all, I, unfortunately, see all the twists and turns coming when it's all in my head.

Lockfågel, the Paradox Knight původně napsal:

They only visualize the characters and provide a basic event framework.

The stress system from traits and events does railroad you quite a bit. That being said, my favorite moments from this game have been taking the stress hit.

I'll never forget my young lass literally becoming a lunatic because she was trying to learn the Finnish language.

[SpiffyGonzales]

Triangle původně napsal:

SpiffyGonzales původně napsal:

I know there's text trees with choices and paragraphs of things to read, but that's more living in pre-made roles rather

Fun fact, a lot of text in this game is computer generated giving unique text based on who you are, who's the character you're interacting with, and what's the relationship between the two.

I think it's an amazing effort on par with the computer generated music in System Shock. But like System Shock, most people don't notice the generated text because what the pre-rendered stuff is way to expansive making the dynamic bits hard to notice, and it's just plain easy to miss in all the noise.

Cool system, I love it, I hope they never do it for any other game.

No I've noticed it, but it goes back to my second paragraph. Like, lets say I choose to be a religous women ruler and get depressed. My options are to A. spend gold, B. spend random resource often accumulated by my ruler, C. increase stress, or D. have a certain percentage that something will go bad (in this case injury from flagelation) but lose stress regardless.
vs
I choose a diplomacy focused man. He gets stressed. My options are A. spend gold. B. spend random resource often accumulated by my ruler. C. increase stress. Or D. Do something that will have a certain percentage of going bad.

I know that that's generalized, and that there's more options based upon your character. But ultimately its fluff and at the end of the day you're not gonna see your empire doing well on gold and still go "ya know what, let's flagellate, it's what my character would do"

Think of it like this, Fallout 1-4 are rpg games because they are centered around a story with you the player living in the world. Now imagine if every 'good guy' option gave you 1000 caps and bad guy option gave you 100 caps with a 30% chance of losing half your health. Suddenly you'd see a lot more good guys walking around the wasteland .

[KingKickAss]

I honestly feel like there is a lack of both RP and goals, the game feels incredibly bare. I can pick any spot on the map to have basically the same options and events, with the difference being a religion and culture that doesn't feel very different. I find that all roads kind of just lead to rising to power and then painting the map because there isn't much else it feels like I can do that would feel satisfying. The world outside of my realm doesn't feel alive, even within it I feel lonely. I could revive a dead religion and culture, and the only impact it has is something like an opinion modifier.

Like I could revive Hellenism with myself as the head of faith, kick the pope out of Rome and then execute him and the result is like a stat changing. Nobody neighboring ruler or power who follows that religion doesn't even give me a glance for doing it. I literally crucified the pope, have created a religion that is sweeping across the land and have been absolutely intolerant of other religions, yet the rest of the world doesn't even acknowledge any of it.

Shouldn't there be situations where neighbouring rulers will try to strike a deal with me like a willingness to adopt my religion if I allow them to maintain their independence? Or different religions within my empire trying to appease me in order to allow them to continue their beliefs? Its like every sort of goal I set for myself ends with "Okay I did it, now/so what?" and then I quit, pick a new spot on the map and probably end up doing something identical, just somewhere else.

[Ashling]

SpiffyGonzales původně napsal:

Think of it like this, Fallout 1-4 are rpg games because they are centered around a story with you the player living in the world. Now imagine if every 'good guy' option gave you 1000 caps and bad guy option gave you 100 caps with a 30% chance of losing half your health. Suddenly you'd see a lot more good guys walking around the wasteland .

I think we can actually treat this game like those RPGs. But in a more classical sense of the word "RPG". Instead of the modern sense where rpgs are choice-based narratives where game play informs character build/creation (which I agree CK3 is absolutely not that), think of it more as a "game" where you have a "role" to "play". Where all the choices you make are in character creation and then those choices go on to impact what role you'll have in the world.

Fallout 1 & 2 are a great example of this, if you didn't put points into computers then you couldn't beat the main game using a computer. You were locked out of many interactions and events/quests sometimes even needing a minimum S.P.E.C.I.A.L score which couldn't be easily modified through level ups. It's the same concept used in old D&D where if you didn't bring a thief, you couldn't open a chest (well, you could, just the same as you could willing walk into a trap). In this way, the event was just fluff for your character that you couldn't change, but it still mattered because it was a consequence of a decision you made previously.

And we see a return to that in CK3 where specific education can inform a character's role in the world. Where you have to decide how to best utilize each character and their skills. In this sense, events aren't narrative, they're gameplay-a skill check/ceiling to see if you have enough Perception-sorry-Intrigue to succeed the event.

In short, it's more about preparation and building a character than it is about event-based world interaction.

At least, that's how I view CK3. I'll freely admit, that might not be the best view of it. I certainly didn't view CK2 that way and had a blast with 2.

[Сааребас]

VoiD původně napsal:

...

You are often so negative about CK3 and yet you have clocked over 600 hours.
While I can imagine not all of that is playtime, that is still a lot of hours,

What is it that you do like about CK3? Because you must get some enjoyment out of the game for clocking in so many hours.

[SnuffSaid]

You may not remember this, but at launch the only way to officially win in Stellaris was to blob. It was literally just "own x% of the galaxy" or purge. Because of that, many people never bothered to finish a game, they'd just play until a certain point then call it a day. This was one of the main reasons it got lukewarm critic reviews at launch. Most of the expansions were focused on remedying that, then feeding their mechanic into the score system, so you could win the way you prefer. It was the right call, in my opinion.

[VoiD]

пьяница původně napsal:

VoiD původně napsal:

...

You are often so negative about CK3 and yet you have clocked over 600 hours.
While I can imagine not all of that is playtime, that is still a lot of hours,

What is it that you do like about CK3? Because you must get some enjoyment out of the game for clocking in so many hours.

That's specifically the problem, the biggest, most glaring issue with the game is that there is no game, there is zero challenge, it's actually not possible to ever lose a game, the AI isn't even bad, it's turned off completelly, you're just playing around in a sandbox with a bunch of oysters floating with the waves, doing nothing, as you play on your own.

I've tried everything, first game as the duke nuno of portucale, restoring the catholic faith (ironman mode, as usual, but all achievements that required you to start as someone back during launch here bugged so I didn't get any of the ones I was aiming for), then I restored the roman empire, there was no challenge up to that point, or at that point.

Tried it again, doing the acchievement Mother of us all, unified africa, converted everything, no challenge, nothing to do.

When the vikings came out I've restored their kingdom, did some achievements, it got even worse, it was even easier, then I left my faith and lands behind as a new crusader king in that same game, starting over in russian lands after a successful crusade, converted to islam, beat all of those nords I creaded up nord in repeated crusades, no challenge, nothing to do, converted all of russia to islam as a nord character, no fun to be had.

Last DLC, in RC, the most disappointing one yet (considering the viking one doesn't even count as content that's saying something) I did the turkish eagle achievement, this time it wasn't bugged but still, nothing to do, no fun to be had, there is no game in here, just some models and map painting.

It's depressing, considering CK2 is possibly the best paradox game yet, while CK3 is... This.
The game's extremelly easy, extremelly simple, extremelly shallow, there are a lot of features of mechanics, but none of them go beyond surface-deep levels, it's like a demo of (some of) the features CK2 had.

Half the game is in an urgent need of a rework, the other would be fine, if it wasn't so lacking.

[The Former]

CrUsHeR původně napsal:

Gotta agree.

Example the hybrid cultures are way too easy to form, and more like a "map painting tool" than anything else.

Combined with the custom faiths, they literally destroy the roleplay element, where you play a ruler of a certain historical faith and culture.

Everything becomes exchangable, meaningless.

If your grandmother's wedding ring can just be traded in for another, shinier wedding ring, is it meaningless? Not at all. Why would you trade your grandmother's wedding ring in for some other ring that has no value to you?

We're not under any obligation to play as a ruler of any other faith or culture than the historical one we choose to play as. The options are there for those players who wish to utilize them, but there's no rule that they have to be used by everyone in every campaign.

Like rules supplements in a tabletop RPG, so too are the parameters of your CK3 run. Yes, D&D has a billion add-ons, but each table picks and chooses the rules and setting fluff they want to use for their campaign.

[The Former]

VoiD původně napsal:

пьяница původně napsal:

You are often so negative about CK3 and yet you have clocked over 600 hours.
While I can imagine not all of that is playtime, that is still a lot of hours,

What is it that you do like about CK3? Because you must get some enjoyment out of the game for clocking in so many hours.

That's specifically the problem, the biggest, most glaring issue with the game is that there is no game, there is zero challenge, it's actually not possible to ever lose a game, the AI isn't even bad, it's turned off completelly, you're just playing around in a sandbox with a bunch of oysters floating with the waves, doing nothing, as you play on your own.

Hyperbole! Open up Skyrim. Bring up the console and type "tai" (toggle AI). See how the game plays differently, and see how it compares to CK3.

There is in fact AI in the game, and pretty generally, it handles like it should. It simulates feudal lords, each living their own lives with their own concerns. They interact with one another, they pursue their individual desires, and they interact with the player and other lords according to their personalities.

This carries across to armies, where reliable men who like you will stand and fight with you to the bitter end, while those of ill repute or who hate you will tend to spare their troops and let you sweat. Most of the time, lords of any stripe won't unnecessarily risk their soldiers anyway (unless they are indeed particularly reliable and/or stalwart).

[Emperor2000]

Rialm původně napsal:

I disagree. First, Stellaris is not a RPG like CK3. You do have a specie and you see how it evolves. But the game is still a 4X. Nevertheless, they put the Situations and shortages and they are always putting more events.
I think you should have brought this discussion in Stellaris forum, not here.

SpiffyGonzales původně napsal:

Ultimately, even if you WANT to roleplay, you simply end up choosing what gives you the best stat increases.

That's up to you. The game has the stress mechanic to slow you down if you try to do something that your character will not tend to do. The game punish you a lot if you try to overdo it. Obviously there are ways to deal with those mechanics, this way the player feels that has more freedom

Are you serious?
The stress system need a rework, because it makes sometimes no sense.

Example:
A character gets no stress, if they let their ward keep their trait even the trait is an opposite trait of their own, Shy vs. Gregarious as an Example.

But if they try to change their wardens traits they get stress for no reason.


Or someone kills your beloved child, but your character is just or compassionate and when you try to imprison the murderer you get stress because you are just or compassionate.