How to get vassals to upgrade to feudal holdings?

[Edmund Greyfox]

I've got a feudal Empire, and all of the core holdings upgraded to feudal when i took the title (i went for the North Sea Empire). Since then i took over the rest of the area around the Baltic and my vassals are expanding me down into Russia/Poland.

Problem is, my vassals have a bunch of tribal holdings that they aren't upgrading to feudal, which basically makes them worthless. Is there some way to get them to upgrade them, or do i just need to wait and hope they eventually get around to it? I don't seem to recall having this issue in prior games, but i also tend to focus on attacking feudal realms so i may just never have noticed it before.

[Peez Machine]

The Adopt Feudal Ways Through Liege decision requires a reformed religion. Since forming The North Sea doesn't, it's possible that you've jumped the line a bit and that the rest of the Asatru Nation won't be able to feudalize until they adopt a reformed faith.

[Edmund Greyfox]

Guess I'm confused. I thought that when i took the empire title and all my/my vassals holdings converted to feudal it was the same as adopting feudal ways. Before i took the empire title "adopt feudal ways" was on my decision bar (though it was still grayed out), but after i took the title it dropped off the decision bar. I also got access to the next level of techs that were unavailable while i was tribal.

The other thing is that my vassals tribal holdings show that they have a feudal ruler and won't produce taxes or levies because of the mismatch. It seems to me that i have already gone feudal, and that my vassals either aren't upgrading the newly captured tribal holdings they've been given/taken themselves, or they are just taking their sweet time about it.

[garthurbrown]

Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:

Guess I'm confused. I thought that when i took the empire title and all my/my vassals holdings converted to feudal it was the same as adopting feudal ways. Before i took the empire title "adopt feudal ways" was on my decision bar (though it was still grayed out), but after i took the title it dropped off the decision bar. I also got access to the next level of techs that were unavailable while i was tribal.

That only effects the vassals you have at the time you feudalize. If you acquire tribal vassals after that they will still be tribal until they can upgrade. It's expensive to upgrade.

But no, they aren't worthless. In fact, they can help you expand much more quickly.

[CrUsHeR]

The first reply is already correct.

Your tribal vassal needs to follow an organized faith. Then he can use the decision "Adopt Feudal Ways Through Liege", which only requires tribal authority rank 2, and 150 prestige.

In turn, anyone who does not follow an organized faith can never become feudal. The two Northern Lords DLC decisions (North Sea and Mann & The Isles) are meant as exceptional shortcuts to circumvene the faith restriction.

Even if all requirements are met, tribals may opt for staying tribal for a while, because they get free cities, temples and main feudal buildings if they have all the tribal buildings built up. These are a lot cheaper, in particular if they can raid occasionally.

[Edmund Greyfox]

Ok, so let's make sure i understand this.

I'm feudal and all my existing vassals are feudal (as are their counties) because of the North Sea's title, but any new tribal counties i take and give to those already feudal vassals will remain tribal until i reform my religion? Or is that only if i give those fiefs to a new vassal that wasn't around when i took the Title, and is therefore still a tribal vassal (since i haven't reformed my religion?

And, If I'm feudal and do a kingdom invasion where i gain a bunch of tribal vassals with a different religion I pretty much have to wait for someone else to reform that religion before any of those vassals will upgrade to feudal or upgrade their fiefs?

Or, am i just assuming my vassals became feudal with the north seas title, but all that really upgraded were the fiefs inside the empire?

[teron]

Outside of the decision which made you and your vassals feudal.

There are two cases for vassals to convert counties to feudal.
1. A feudal lord owns the tribal land and has to pay 500 gold to feudalize the county. This gets expensive fast for person who holds those tribes, especially since they get no income from them. Which makes it slow due to the major cost.
2. A tribal vassal, who has a liege that is feudal. In this case that vassal can use the Adopt Feudal Ways through Liege decision, which just needs them to have the following: Tribal, Faith is organized, Liege with Feudal Goverment, Not Disparate Tribes and 150 prestige

So the ideal would be to reform the religion so it is organized, and then give tribal holdings to existing tribal vassals, or new people who start tribal.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:

I'm feudal and all my existing vassals are feudal (as are their counties) because of the North Sea's title, but any new tribal counties i take and give to those already feudal vassals will remain tribal until i reform my religion? Or is that only if i give those fiefs to a new vassal that wasn't around when i took the Title, and is therefore still a tribal vassal (since i haven't reformed my religion?

Yes that's how it works.

Not only that - if you reform your faith to the organized version, only your direct vassals will convert automatically. How many depends mostly on their opinion and traits.

Indirect vassals will not convert, prepare for a lot of bribes to demand conversion one by one. And foreign realms are not affected by the reformation at all.

And, If I'm feudal and do a kingdom invasion where i gain a bunch of tribal vassals with a different religion I pretty much have to wait for someone else to reform that religion before any of those vassals will upgrade to feudal or upgrade their fiefs?

Which faith doesn't matter, it just cannot be unreformed. You can always demand conversion, and resisting conversion is a crime. If someone is your direct vassal you can attempt to imprison them after refusal; if they refuse imprisonment you have to beat their rebellion, and then you can definitely revoke their titles just for rebelling.

Those who are not direct vassals are always a problem, because you cannot revoke their titles after imprisoning them. So the proper way is still to sway / bribe them until the conversion acceptance is high enough.

If you reform your faith with the Righteous or Fundamentalist doctrine, you can also directly revoke titles from vassals who are evil or hostile respectively, without demanding conversion. However, doing this will lower the cultural acceptance, which is not the case when you imprison them as criminal rebels.

Or, am i just assuming my vassals became feudal with the north seas title, but all that really upgraded were the fiefs inside the empire?

Your entire realm should adopt feudalism when taking this decision. So in your situation, this is limited to whatever counties were part of your realm when you took the decision.

Note that reforming will remove your ability to raid.

[Edmund Greyfox]

I was afraid of that. Most of what I'm seeing are tribal holdings in the hands of indirect vassals, so i guess I'm going to have to reform my religion and spend a lifetime or two getting them to convert. I wish my vassals hadn't conquered this stuff in the first place now, but it's not like they asked before they did it. :)

[garthurbrown]

Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:

I was afraid of that. Most of what I'm seeing are tribal holdings in the hands of indirect vassals, so i guess I'm going to have to reform my religion and spend a lifetime or two getting them to convert. I wish my vassals hadn't conquered this stuff in the first place now, but it's not like they asked before they did it. :)

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think it's bad that you have new tribal vassals and they conquer land.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by garthurbrown:

Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:

I was afraid of that. Most of what I'm seeing are tribal holdings in the hands of indirect vassals, so i guess I'm going to have to reform my religion and spend a lifetime or two getting them to convert. I wish my vassals hadn't conquered this stuff in the first place now, but it's not like they asked before they did it. :)

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think it's bad that you have new tribal vassals and they conquer land.

You personally gain nothing when a vassal conquers land.

All this does is to let them cross de jure borders, ruining the power balance, removing taxes which should go to you instead. Causing needless peasant rabble, culture / religious revolts, vassals growing too strong.

There are so many more problems, like if you allow a vassal to take "just one more county", suddenly a new kingdom is created for your secondborn, and all your succession plans are for nothing.

TLDR; show your vassals who's the boss. If you don't have max Crown Authority, demand to stop vassal wars, revoke titles if necessary.

[Edmund Greyfox]

Originally posted by garthurbrown:

Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:

I was afraid of that. Most of what I'm seeing are tribal holdings in the hands of indirect vassals, so i guess I'm going to have to reform my religion and spend a lifetime or two getting them to convert. I wish my vassals hadn't conquered this stuff in the first place now, but it's not like they asked before they did it. :)

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think it's bad that you have new tribal vassals and they conquer land.

I guess i should have been more clear. I wasn't logged in and was posting from memory.

The issue isn't that i have tribal vassals, it's that i have Feudal vassals (both direct and non direct) holding tribal lands, and a bunch of them show "wrong type of holding" when i click on the holding screen. There's one tooltip that says "buildings disabled because count X does not have a tribal government" and the other "tribe cannot be effectively held by chars with feudal government and will produce no tax or levies".

I assume the fix is to upgrade to a feudal holding, but there is no option for me to pay to upgrade it myself.

[Edmund Greyfox]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by garthurbrown:

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think it's bad that you have new tribal vassals and they conquer land.

You personally gain nothing when a vassal conquers land.

All this does is to let them cross de jure borders, ruining the power balance, removing taxes which should go to you instead. Causing needless peasant rabble, culture / religious revolts, vassals growing too strong.

There are so many more problems, like if you allow a vassal to take "just one more county", suddenly a new kingdom is created for your secondborn, and all your succession plans are for nothing.

TLDR; show your vassals who's the boss. If you don't have max Crown Authority, demand to stop vassal wars, revoke titles if necessary.

It's too early for max crown authority. It's only 1015, and I've got about another 15 years before the royal prerogative research is completed.

[garthurbrown]

Originally posted by CrUsHeR:

Originally posted by garthurbrown:

I'm having a hard time understanding why you think it's bad that you have new tribal vassals and they conquer land.

You personally gain nothing when a vassal conquers land.

All this does is to let them cross de jure borders, ruining the power balance, removing taxes which should go to you instead. Causing needless peasant rabble, culture / religious revolts, vassals growing too strong.

There are so many more problems, like if you allow a vassal to take "just one more county", suddenly a new kingdom is created for your secondborn, and all your succession plans are for nothing.

TLDR; show your vassals who's the boss. If you don't have max Crown Authority, demand to stop vassal wars, revoke titles if necessary.

None of this has ever been a problem for me. The solutions seems so obvious, I'm not even going to get into it. I've never had Max Crown Authority and likely never will.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by garthurbrown:

None of this has ever been a problem for me. The solutions seems so obvious, I'm not even going to get into it. I've never had Max Crown Authority and likely never will.

never had Max Crown Authority

Yeah no problem, better don't try explaining that.

[glythe]

Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:

Is there some way to get them to upgrade them, or do i just need to wait and hope they eventually get around to it?

So step by step.... you could make sure the people who have the tribal holdings are your vassal. This may require vassal reallocation which makes lords under you unhappy.

Strip the vassals of their title (may require some tyranny). Now that you own the land pay the cost to upgrade it to feudal from tribal (no buildings must be in progress).

Give it to someone else.


Alternatively you can wait and hope. This can take a very long time.