Crusader Kings III

Crusader Kings III

View Stats:
Ideal Empire/Kingdom management?
Hey guys, I was trying to do a bit of research on things like taxes and so on, and I wanted to make sure I understood this correctly.
If I am an Emperor, I shouldn't create vassal Kingdoms right? I heard that you don't as much money from them as you would holding the kingdom titles yourself and just having everybody be a Duchy at best. Also having a Duchy(or two?) all to yourself is also ideal, correct?

I really like having very clean internal borders with no infighting among my vassals, nobody going beyond their duchies and so on. As I recall, crown authority solves this, but I just want to make sure that I'm running things correctly.

Also, is there a way I could prevent multiple children from dividing up my holdings? Cant I give them their own duchy or something? I hate having to kill my kids and keeping my family very small, but I suppose thats the whole balance of it.
Last edited by KingKickAss; Apr 2, 2022 @ 5:20pm
< >
Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
teron Apr 2, 2022 @ 5:33pm 
For the last point, a lot of it can be solved by cultural innovations or special succession types.
Outside of the special succession types it typically is an evolution along the lines of the following:
Confederate Partition --> Partition --> High Partition (which gives more to the primary heir)
then evolving into the Primogeniture or Ultimogeniture where the heir gets everything

Also you can control succession by limiting the number of kids, or making them take the vows to become monks or nuns (religion dependant)

For the crown authority part, it only effects your direct vassals. Their vassals can still fight between each other. I know there is a mod that fixes this if you do not like that.

Once you get big enough and start getting close to the vassal limit, you are going to have to deal with kings. Yes, you get less tax and levies but making 1 very strong vassal like you (or have an alliance with you due to marrage) is easier then herding multiple counts out of a faction.

The main trick to managing a large empire is to make sure your personal holdings are as built up as possible, with as much development as possible. Since this means good income, which means having full MAA. Also more levies, which just increase the amount of military power that factions need to generate discontent.

Finally, always make sure your control in your domain (territory you directly control) is at 100. Since every point below 100 is 1% tax and 0.5% levy malus for that county. So it can have a huge impact on your finances.
Last edited by teron; Apr 2, 2022 @ 5:39pm
BrowneHawk Apr 2, 2022 @ 7:55pm 
Part of late game is more of a cleaning your internal border, at least for me it is. No matter how careful you are, eventually your internal borders can get screwed up through marriages and such. A diplomacy ruler or Intrigue can be good for this point.

For inheritance issues. Ck3 makes it pretty easy with the disinherit option. Having to disinherit a son or two to maybe get to the ideal 3rd born won't hurt too bad. You can also try to rely on killing them off by having them serve as a commander.

Now with more on making kingdoms. I think it can be done a few ways. Me personally I like to do genetic breeding. Not only for my own dynasty but I try to eventually spread strong genetics every where. This is where my disinherited sons come in. Find them a good mate and let them produce genetically strong off spring. Give them land. Do this for a few generations and your heirs will always have inheritable traited spouses to choose from.

This comes with danger involved though and this is where having strong personal holding comes in. Your chosen heirs will face claim wars from time to time. And normally its one of those kingdoms you made leading the charge, trying to replace you with some off the radar family member.
corisai Apr 3, 2022 @ 4:28am 
Originally posted by KingKickAss:
I heard that you don't as much money from them as you would holding the kingdom titles yourself and just having everybody be a Duchy at best.
Counts are the best :) Sadly but vassal limit is against it. After few generations your Dukes will end mostly with one country under their direct rule.

Originally posted by KingKickAss:
Also having a Duchy(or two?) all to yourself is also ideal, correct?
As many duchies as you're capable to hold is ideal. Problem is to hold them through succession (and deal with angry vassals agitated by too many duchies penalty), that's why two is "a gold standard".

Originally posted by KingKickAss:
Also, is there a way I could prevent multiple children from dividing up my holdings? Cant I give them their own duchy or something?
Legal way is wait until High Partition / Primogeniture.
Also there is a bug with elective succession allowing having a single heir almost immediately from start. Search around how exactly to trigger it if you want to cheat :)


Originally posted by BrowneHawk:
For inheritance issues. Ck3 makes it pretty easy with the disinherit option. Having to disinherit a son or two to maybe get to the ideal 3rd born won't hurt too bad.
Except usage of disinherit will delay permanent buffs through legacies so it's worst possible option to do about inheritance (of course if you're planning long campaign).
Last edited by corisai; Apr 3, 2022 @ 4:29am
Yaldabaoth Apr 3, 2022 @ 5:45am 
Originally posted by corisai:
Originally posted by BrowneHawk:
For inheritance issues. Ck3 makes it pretty easy with the disinherit option. Having to disinherit a son or two to maybe get to the ideal 3rd born won't hurt too bad.
Except usage of disinherit will delay permanent buffs through legacies so it's worst possible option to do about inheritance (of course if you're planning long campaign).
Delaying one buff for 3-4 years max to save a whole campaign is not a big deal. In my last game I got like 100+ renown every month in 1200. Just put your family in charge of independent kingdoms. If you try to paint the map, it's much harder.
corisai Apr 3, 2022 @ 6:02am 
Originally posted by Yaldabaoth:
Delaying one buff for 3-4 years max to save a whole campaign is not a big deal. In my last game I got like 100+ renown every month in 1200. Just put your family in charge of independent kingdoms. If you try to paint the map, it's much harder.
Partially true. Partially - because:
a) You're actually painting the map to have so much renown, but in a different way. Not everyone like such gameplay.
It could be done with intrigue too, but marriage game is limited too by cultures and faith.
b) If you're rely on disinherit since start - it could delay snowballing as you don't really need dynasty buffs once you have conquered 10+ kingdoms :)
c) There are different tools to control inheritance, cultural & religious.
And of course - bastards :) Now that's especially easy to do with addition of court jobs (as courtiers on them are not going to leave you or dying soon). Once you get congenial health trait in your dynasty - you could more-or-less safely delay marriage and start with making bastards with your courtiers.

Disinherit still a nice "oh, s@#$" button or late-game tool - I'm just suggest to not rely on it since day 0.
CrUsHeR Apr 3, 2022 @ 6:17am 
Originally posted by KingKickAss:
If I am an Emperor, I shouldn't create vassal Kingdoms right? I heard that you don't as much money from them as you would holding the kingdom titles yourself and just having everybody be a Duchy at best. Also having a Duchy(or two?) all to yourself is also ideal, correct?

In theory, it would be best to have the entire world vassalized as Counts, while being Emperor yourself and holding all the Duchy and Kingdom titles above. This is because a Count gets the full taxes from his domain, so you get the maximum share of the realm economy, while getting all the perks of being an Emperor.

In reality, this is simply not possible. There is a global vassal limit, and you can only hold two Duchy titles without penalties once you are King or above.

Another VERY big issue is that faction power is calculated with all the potential vassal power, compared to the power of your own domain. So for example if you have a foreign kingdom vassalized as Counts, they obviously have more troops and money than yourself.
If you were to distribute the power to Dukes, they would only get a minority share of the troops, so the faction potential is comparably smaller. And if you were to have this kingdom under one Vassal king, his faction power goes down even further.

So there always needs to be a balance between the vassal contribution, and how much power they hold compared to yourself.
Obviously it is also much much easier and faster to control your relations to one King, rather than 5 Dukes or 25 Counts.

Originally posted by KingKickAss:
I really like having very clean internal borders with no infighting among my vassals, nobody going beyond their duchies and so on. As I recall, crown authority solves this, but I just want to make sure that I'm running things correctly.

It isn't only about the clean borders and infighting; if anyone has a vassal who is not their de jure vassal, meaning he doesn't hold the legal superior title, then this vassal will give reduced taxes (iirc -50%). Which means that all this gold is lost in the hierarchy.

Thus it is absolutely imperative that nobody ever holds a title he isn't supposed to have.
An early method is to maintain a high Dread level, then simply demand to stop vassal wars. Keep an eye out for armies moving around in your domain, this always means somone is having a war.

Later on you should always run with Crown Authority 4, no matter the costs. Always keep some gold stashed for faction revolts, go for diplomacy and educate your heirs into virtuous persons.

Originally posted by KingKickAss:
Also, is there a way I could prevent multiple children from dividing up my holdings? Cant I give them their own duchy or something? I hate having to kill my kids and keeping my family very small, but I suppose thats the whole balance of it.

The general meta works like this

1. forge claim on county
2. declare war and immediately start forging another claim on another realm
3. repeat

This way your realm keeps growing, give the land to fresh Lowborns and try to make sure no other vassal takes the land.

Then you just need to count how many sons you have. Press F2 and click on the succession tab, this shows how many heirs you have.

Create one Duchy title per extra son, look at the changes in the succession tab. If done right, every extra son gets 1 duchy title and nothing else.
Just hold onto these titles until you die.

-----------

Important tip - only get your sons married once they are around 30+ years old. Do not give them land. Do not marry landed rulers or anyone in line for a landed title, to prevent your heir inheriting random titles.

This way you can prevent your children from suffering the typical AI problems when running their own court, and you keep a healthy gap between generations.
A long generation span means more time to acquire land and titles, have a long stable time in office with each ruler, and minimize the amount of total successions.
Last edited by CrUsHeR; Apr 3, 2022 @ 6:21am
corisai Apr 3, 2022 @ 6:29am 
Originally posted by CrUsHeR:
It isn't only about the clean borders and infighting; if anyone has a vassal who is not their de jure vassal, meaning he doesn't hold the legal superior title, then this vassal will give reduced taxes (iirc -50%). Which means that all this gold is lost in the hierarchy.

Thus it is absolutely imperative that nobody ever holds a title he isn't supposed to have.

Only for your direct vassals. Gains to you from indirect vassals are abysmal and don't worth it (plus in case indirect vassals reduced income will mostly weaken your direct vassals that couldn't a be bad thing).


Originally posted by CrUsHeR:
Important tip - only get your sons married once they are around 30+ years old. Do not give them land. Do not marry landed rulers or anyone in line for a landed title, to prevent your heir inheriting random titles.
+1
Do a bastard or two in case of "safety measures" if your sons would suddenly die. Better with someone unimportant to avoid rivality inside your dynasty.
Last edited by corisai; Apr 3, 2022 @ 6:30am
_bbg_ Apr 3, 2022 @ 6:34am 
Originally posted by KingKickAss:
Hey guys, I was trying to do a bit of research on things like taxes and so on, and I wanted to make sure I understood this correctly.
If I am an Emperor, I shouldn't create vassal Kingdoms right? I heard that you don't as much money from them as you would holding the kingdom titles yourself and just having everybody be a Duchy at best. Also having a Duchy(or two?) all to yourself is also ideal, correct?

You are correct in that the more vassals you have the more taxes you get, but there definitely comes a point when consolidating makes sense to avoid civil wars. When I have a ruler die and I can't stop a dangerous faction, I create kingdom titles and bury rebellious vassals under them looking for high opinion vassals to give the titles to (the content trait is the best, trusting is good too). It also makes it easy to create internal alliances (allies can't join factions) when you have a handful of large vassals.

I'll just keep upgrading my domain holdings, raising opinion with clan vassals (or raising taxes on feudal contracts), and I seem to quickly get over whatever income loss I have from consolidating.

edit: You can also go way above the Duchy limit because the Duchy capital buildings dramatically boost your MAA and you can easily compensate for the opinion loss. How to cheese with MAA is another story though but I'm usually holding like 5 Duchies.

Originally posted by KingKickAss:
I really like having very clean internal borders with no infighting among my vassals, nobody going beyond their duchies and so on. As I recall, crown authority solves this, but I just want to make sure that I'm running things correctly.

High crown authority stops vassals from declaring war on each other but it won't stop internal factions and the wars that result from those.

Originally posted by KingKickAss:
Also, is there a way I could prevent multiple children from dividing up my holdings? Cant I give them their own duchy or something? I hate having to kill my kids and keeping my family very small, but I suppose thats the whole balance of it.

I don't like being too gamey about this either but if you are the dynasty head you can just disinherit them and the cost to prestige and renown isn't a big deal. If you're not the dynasty head you can probably become it by creating a cadet branch (you just need the largest levy count of any dynasty member).
Last edited by _bbg_; Apr 3, 2022 @ 6:43am
bob869007 Apr 6, 2022 @ 5:17am 
Originally posted by KingKickAss:
Also, is there a way I could prevent multiple children from dividing up my holdings? Cant I give them their own duchy or something? I hate having to kill my kids and keeping my family very small, but I suppose thats the whole balance of it.


One way to do this, which works from day 1, is to own all counties in your home duchy and add law for election if it is part of your culture. You will have the only vote. When you conquer an entire duchy move your capital to there and add law. Then just vote for whoever you want as your player heir. The player heir will get your highest ranked, or main, title anyway so whoever that is vote for..
KingKickAss Apr 6, 2022 @ 12:59pm 
Originally posted by bob869007:
Originally posted by KingKickAss:
Also, is there a way I could prevent multiple children from dividing up my holdings? Cant I give them their own duchy or something? I hate having to kill my kids and keeping my family very small, but I suppose thats the whole balance of it.


One way to do this, which works from day 1, is to own all counties in your home duchy and add law for election if it is part of your culture. You will have the only vote. When you conquer an entire duchy move your capital to there and add law. Then just vote for whoever you want as your player heir. The player heir will get your highest ranked, or main, title anyway so whoever that is vote for..
I haven't moved my capital before, and funny enough thats what I was planning to do on this next run, so I'll have to check that out. I would love to have more than one kid out there and this seems like the best way to go about it.
< >
Showing 1-10 of 10 comments
Per page: 1530 50

Date Posted: Apr 2, 2022 @ 5:15pm
Posts: 10