Undo Formed Kingdoms?

[Liberator48]

So back a couple hundred years ago, long before my great forefathers formed the empire of Scandinavia. Some old goat thought it'd be fun to form the Kingdom of Bergslagen, which holds roughly half of modern day Sweden's land.

Some other king also formed the kingdom of Upplönd, which holds about half of modern day Norway's land. So instead of having just Sweden and Norway to worry about, I have to look after two more kingdom titles whenever succession time comes around.

Now, I have destroyed both Bergslagen and Upplönd titles, but their territories still remain and anyone who holds the majority of them can just re-create the titles. In fact, one of my vassals did. I don't want those two extra kingdoms, instead I want larger Norway and Sweden.

Is there a way to achieve this?

[LzDK14]

Why don't you want 2 more kingdoms? If you have 2+ top level titles (eg. 2 Empires if you're emperor, 2 kingdoms if you're just a lowly king), adding feudal or scandinavial (since you're speaking about Scandinavia) elective succession to ALL of them, will allow you to bypass partition succession altogether AND get an hier of your choosing.
Yes, you must have 2+ top tier title in order to do this.

So, what's the problem?

In my current playthroug I have 32 kingdom tier titles for myself, +1 is reserved for an heir, who is also a temp holder for vassals that are above vassal limits, and one kingdom vassal, whom I decided to vassalize rather than taking his lands.

[Liberator48]

Originally posted by LzDK14:

Why don't you want 2 more kingdoms? If you have 2+ top level titles (eg. 2 Empires if you're emperor, 2 kingdoms if you're just a lowly king), adding feudal or scandinavial (since you're speaking about Scandinavia) elective succession to ALL of them, will allow you to bypass partition succession altogether AND get an hier of your choosing.
Yes, you must have 2+ top tier title in order to do this.

So, what's the problem?

In my current playthroug I have 32 kingdom tier titles for myself, +1 is reserved for an heir, who is also a temp holder for vassals that are above vassal limits, and one kingdom vassal, whom I decided to vassalize rather than taking his lands.

I don't like it because all the stars aren't aligned yet so that I can have absolute choice over the heir. And it will take a long time to get there, which means these extra kingdoms get passed around to siblings which always rebel later on. Fewer kingdoms means fewer future rebels. Not to mention fewer, but more powerful vassals means easier to handle them.

[LzDK14]

Ahem, you've read my post, right? I know that it's quite long, sure, but it describes on how to prevent this from happening.

Just saying, this can be done on your first generation, starting in 890 (earlest possible date), with tribal ruler (no access to feudal elective), with culture without access to culture elective succession (no access to scandinavian elective), with unreformed pagan faith (faith will be reformed, not a convert to cristianity). So it really doesn't take long.

PS: btw, about those 32 kingdome title, the year is 1099, so I don't have access to any other forms of successtion law other than partition (aside from feudal elective, obsly).

[Liberator48]

Originally posted by LzDK14:

Ahem, you've read my post, right? I know that it's quite long, sure, but it describes on how to prevent this from happening.

Just saying, this can be done on your first generation, starting in 890 (earlest possible date), with tribal ruler (no access to feudal elective), with culture without access to culture elective succession (no access to scandinavian elective), with unreformed pagan faith (faith will be reformed, not a convert to cristianity). So it really doesn't take long.

PS: btw, about those 32 kingdome title, the year is 1099, so I don't have access to any other forms of successtion law other than partition (aside from feudal elective, obsly).

How? It's not possible. You need heraldry which is high medieval tactic.
Elections only make it more unstable...

Anyway, you didn't answer my question. My question was if I can delete those two kingdoms land so they go back to Sweden and Norway.

[LzDK14]

1. No you can't "delete" them.
2. You can destroy title and reintegrate duchies into kingdomes, and kingdomes into empires. Will take ltrly ages.
3. You have zero reasons to do so in the first place.
4. You DON'T need heraldy in order to have absolute control over succession
5. You don't even need Royal prerogative in order to have absolute control over succession.
6. If you aren't reading what you've been wrote, how are you expecting to know something? Should I somehow mindf- you and leave that knowledge inside your skull?

[Kernest]

Originally posted by Liberator48:

Now, I have destroyed both Bergslagen and Upplönd titles, but their territories still remain and anyone who holds the majority of them can just re-create the titles. In fact, one of my vassals did. I don't want those two extra kingdoms, instead I want larger Norway and Sweden.

Is there a way to achieve this?

The requirements to form a kingdom are
A) Hold more than 50% of the de-jure land and
B) Have at least 2 duchy-level titles.

So you should prevent those two things from happening. With the right Crown Authority (requires tech) vassals can't wage internal wars without using a Hook on you, but even without that you can try to create weak vassals (1 county each) and demand they end vassal wars.

Not exactly a surefire plan, so you're in a pickle there, bud...

[LzDK14]

Originally posted by Kernest:

Originally posted by Liberator48:

Now, I have destroyed both Bergslagen and Upplönd titles, but their territories still remain and anyone who holds the majority of them can just re-create the titles. In fact, one of my vassals did. I don't want those two extra kingdoms, instead I want larger Norway and Sweden.

Is there a way to achieve this?

The requirements to form a kingdom are
A) Hold more than 50% of the de-jure land and
B) Have at least 2 duchy-level titles.

So you should prevent those two things from happening. With the right Crown Authority (requires tech) vassals can't wage internal wars without using a Hook on you, but even without that you can try to create weak vassals (1 county each) and demand they end vassal wars.

Not exactly a surefire plan, so you're in a pickle there, bud...

Nope, on confederate partition titles will be created if at the time of death your char has more than 50% on lands, not if your chars child inherit 50% of a kingdom. It's the main f-kup of confederate partition.

Can be avoided.

https://imgur.com/PQlU2CR
Confederate partition, 1098, 30+ children, no titles lost on succession. Note that there is no "designtated hier".

[Kernest]

Originally posted by LzDK14:

Nope, on confederate partition titles will be created if at the time of death your char has more than 50% on lands, not if your chars child inherit 50% of a kingdom. It's the main f-kup of confederate partition.

Can be avoided.

Yes, I forgot to mention needing to get rid of Confederate Partition.

But if OPs game has gone on for "a couple hundred years" then that should no longer be an issue, right?

[Liberator48]

Originally posted by LzDK14:

1. No you can't "delete" them.
2. You can destroy title and reintegrate duchies into kingdomes, and kingdomes into empires. Will take ltrly ages.
3. You have zero reasons to do so in the first place.
4. You DON'T need heraldy in order to have absolute control over succession
5. You don't even need Royal prerogative in order to have absolute control over succession.
6. If you aren't reading what you've been wrote, how are you expecting to know something? Should I somehow mindf- you and leave that knowledge inside your skull?

If you've read MY comments you should understand by know that I've destroyed the titles and i've even waited the 90 years for the De Jure drift to run its course, yet the territory still remains and anyone can re-create those kingdoms if they happen to own the majority of it.

I thought after De Jure drift finished, they would disappear but they don't. May be bug, i don't know.

[LzDK14]

Originally posted by Liberator48:

Originally posted by LzDK14:

1. No you can't "delete" them.
2. You can destroy title and reintegrate duchies into kingdomes, and kingdomes into empires. Will take ltrly ages.
3. You have zero reasons to do so in the first place.
4. You DON'T need heraldy in order to have absolute control over succession
5. You don't even need Royal prerogative in order to have absolute control over succession.
6. If you aren't reading what you've been wrote, how are you expecting to know something? Should I somehow mindf- you and leave that knowledge inside your skull?

If you've read MY comments you should understand by know that I've destroyed the titles and i've even waited the 90 years for the De Jure drift to run its course, yet the territory still remains and anyone can re-create those kingdoms if they happen to own the majority of it.

I thought after De Jure drift finished, they would disappear but they don't. May be bug, i don't know.

Point #2. I'm done with you, you're hopeless.

[Liberator48]

Originally posted by LzDK14:

Originally posted by Liberator48:

If you've read MY comments you should understand by know that I've destroyed the titles and i've even waited the 90 years for the De Jure drift to run its course, yet the territory still remains and anyone can re-create those kingdoms if they happen to own the majority of it.

I thought after De Jure drift finished, they would disappear but they don't. May be bug, i don't know.

Point #2. I'm done with you, you're hopeless.

Oh you mean you won't spam my post anymore with your pointless off-topic drivel? How fortuitous, maybe someone who actually knows something will reply instead.

[LzDK14]

Originally posted by Kernest:

Originally posted by LzDK14:

Nope, on confederate partition titles will be created if at the time of death your char has more than 50% on lands, not if your chars child inherit 50% of a kingdom. It's the main f-kup of confederate partition.

Can be avoided.

Yes, I forgot to mention needing to get rid of Confederate Partition.

But if OPs game has gone on for "a couple hundred years" then that should no longer be an issue, right?

You don't REALLY need to get rid of CF, see provided screenshot please, it clearly states that I have CF.
Besides, personaly holding 50% of 2 kingdoms will most likely put you above domain and 2 duches limit. And micromanaging inheritance to avoid vassal collecting enough land is pain in the arse.

[JC]

Umm things should drift into other kingdoms eventually. But you can't stop a kingdom from forming if they meet the requirements.. But if you are the main ruler of those lands it's easy enough to revoke titles and keep people from forming things you don't want formed.

[Monkey89brains]

De jure drift basically just stops you having penalties for lands you are not the rightful liege of by integrating them into your titles, such as the vassal opinion penalty "not my rightful liege" or reduced income. It does not however remove it from its original De Jure title, it still remains as part of that kingdom, duchy, whatever.

You will need to manage vassals if you do not want them forming the kingdoms after you destroy the titles, or having them inherited by siblings. Vassal management is like 90% of the difficulty in this game, if you are not cheesing or map painting. Hold those counties yourself so they can not be used by the AI to form the kingdoms. I also like to put vassals on forced partition if I can, that way their lands explode every generation regardless of the realms laws, this keeps a single powerful vassal from acquiring lots of power too fast, but if you are not feudal that isn't an option I guess. If you are though,the AI can not comprehend birth control measures, so get a hook on the inheritor, imprison him or just bite the tyranny gain, destroy the title and force partition on them, in a couple generations the former kings family will be dukes with a single county each. Boost the Crown auth up and they can't even wage the wars they need to gain the land to form the kingdom.

You don't really gain anything by having a larger Sweden or Norway, unless you hold all the counties in those Kingdoms, if you can keep those extra kingdoms ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and underdeveloped, and ensure that your successors don't inherit too many counties in them, it shouldn't be an too much of an issue to deal with any rebellions or factions tbh.

Originally posted by Liberator48:

Originally posted by LzDK14:

Point #2. I'm done with you, you're hopeless.

Oh you mean you won't spam my post anymore with your pointless off-topic drivel? How fortuitous, maybe someone who actually knows something will reply instead.

lmao. Burn.

[Liberator48]

Originally posted by Monkey89brains:

De jure drift basically just stops you having penalties for lands you are not the rightful liege of by integrating them into your titles, such as the vassal opinion penalty "not my rightful liege" or reduced income. It does not however remove it from its original De Jure title, it still remains as part of that kingdom, duchy, whatever.

You will need to manage vassals if you do not want them forming the kingdoms after you destroy the titles, or having them inherited by siblings. Vassal management is like 90% of the difficulty in this game, if you are not cheesing or map painting. Hold those counties yourself so they can not be used by the AI to form the kingdoms. I also like to put vassals on forced partition if I can, that way their lands explode every generation regardless of the realms laws, this keeps a single powerful vassal from acquiring lots of power too fast, but if you are not feudal that isn't an option I guess. If you are though,the AI can not comprehend birth control measures, so get a hook on the inheritor, imprison him or just bite the tyranny gain, destroy the title and force partition on them, in a couple generations the former kings family will be dukes with a single county each. Boost the Crown auth up and they can't even wage the wars they need to gain the land to form the kingdom.

You don't really gain anything by having a larger Sweden or Norway, unless you hold all the counties in those Kingdoms, if you can keep those extra kingdoms ♥♥♥♥♥♥ and underdeveloped, and ensure that your successors don't inherit too many counties in them, it shouldn't be an too much of an issue to deal with any rebellions or factions tbh.

Originally posted by Liberator48:

Oh you mean you won't spam my post anymore with your pointless off-topic drivel? How fortuitous, maybe someone who actually knows something will reply instead.

lmao. Burn.

So you're saying there is no way of undoing the mistake I made when I formed the new kingdom of Bergslagen?

I simply shouldn't have done that, and the de jure part of Sweden would be about twice its size now...

Well good to keep in mind for future playthroughs then, only form a new kingdom if you don't intend to become emperor... (new, meaning a historically fictional kingdom like Bergslagen)

Seems a bit silly though.