Crusader Kings III

Crusader Kings III

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ivane 21 MAR 2022 a las 4:32 a. m.
I played last week CK2 after CK3 and found out that CK2 is far supperior game in many aspects
Main thing which I liked in CK2 more is that you are developing your character, life and your decitions are changing your character. For example Even if you have weak character at young age, you can still become efitient by achieving things. For example if you win battles, you will become good strategist no matter how unexperienced your character was at age 16. In CK3 you just stuck with your character and its 3 traits, doesnot matter how great deeds you achieve. you rarly can change traits or skills...


also traits are too few. Character should have much more complex personallity than 3 traits. person should be much more complex than that, this is main reason why we do not remember any of our characters in CK3, they are oversimplified and almost never change after 16 years, so they do not have personallity and we did not remember them... I played whole game as byzantine in CK3 on ironman and had much less imertion than with 1 character in CK2. this can not be accident

Another big thing is warfare. It was so damn immersing in CK2, you have 2 generals on flanks, different battle phases, duels in middle of battles.. having weak general could become big problemm.
Also in CK3 if you have castle, enemy is automaticly on the attacking side when you appear and that is really stupid. if enemy is besieging your settlement that does not mean that he has to attack you when you show up. I can even show you historical evidence. look how ceasar fought gouls in Battle of Alesia. He has besieged Gouls and built another wall around camp, so when gouls came they also had to besiege Ceasars camp.

My biggest problem is dumbing down game is intentional to make game much more easy for casual players, but that also makes it boring in a big time. It is shame, I hope paradox will change that philosophy and make CK3 as complex as CK2, but sadly I dont think so. We are in modern era, where every game has to be dumbed down, even grand strategy... shame
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Mostrando 46-60 de 107 comentarios
Grunaldi 23 MAR 2022 a las 7:40 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por jerrypocalypse:
Entertainment is purely subjective
Última edición por Grunaldi; 23 MAR 2022 a las 7:40 a. m.
jerrypocalypse 23 MAR 2022 a las 7:48 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Grunaldi:
Publicado originalmente por jerrypocalypse:
Entertainment is purely subjective
Maybe you should read the entire sentence. You know, the part where I talk about the number of people, like I told you I've been talking about.

Publicado originalmente por jerrypocalypse:
Entertainment is purely subjective, no matter how many people like one thing over the another.
The hilarious part is even taking half the statement still says nothing about my opinion of reviews.
Ashling 23 MAR 2022 a las 8:26 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por jerrypocalypse:
If you're concerned about which game more people enjoy, it's interesting you'd simply just list the number of peak people playing at the exact same time
But Paradox does see who's playing what. In fact, I'd argue one of the main reason CK3's DLC had a price hike was because of the series' lower player count. Maybe Paradox assumed those who played CK3 are more dedicated to the series and therefor it'd make up for the shortfall. It'd be interesting to see if the price hike remains even after the pre-order stops being relevant and the new game smell wears off.

Anyways, in Paradox's case, player count can inform content and how much of it we get for better or worse.
Although, I would agree that player count doesn't reflect how much you personally can enjoy a game which is probably what matters more in the end, but that's also the thing which is hard to actually tell at first glance.
jerrypocalypse 23 MAR 2022 a las 8:55 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Triangle:
Publicado originalmente por jerrypocalypse:
If you're concerned about which game more people enjoy, it's interesting you'd simply just list the number of peak people playing at the exact same time
But Paradox does see who's playing what. In fact, I'd argue one of the main reason CK3's DLC had a price hike was because of the series' lower player count. Maybe Paradox assumed those who played CK3 are more dedicated to the series and therefor it'd make up for the shortfall. It'd be interesting to see if the price hike remains even after the pre-order stops being relevant and the new game smell wears off.

Anyways, in Paradox's case, player count can inform content and how much of it we get for better or worse.
Although, I would agree that player count doesn't reflect how much you personally can enjoy a game which is probably what matters more in the end, but that's also the thing which is hard to actually tell at first glance.
I could be mistaken, but my understanding is that Paradox has stated from the beginning that CK3 would have fewer DLCs, but they would be higher prices.

But that doesn't apply to what I was originally saying anyway. I was only commenting on the fact that some gamers use the number of people concurrently playing to validate their opinion of a game, which is odd to me.

The post I made the review comment in your quote in response to began talking about determining if the game was "good" and I thought it interesting that, if that was the case, why they were only commenting on peak players and ignoring the reviews. Number of sales (a logical correlation to number of players) alone does not mean a game is more or less enjoyable, or more or less "good". A game can have an incredibly high number of sales and be considered a monetary "success" but still be seen as a "bad" game and vice versa. Just listing some peak numbers and saying that means a game is "good" or "bad" is strange. But all that was never my original point, that only came about by their transition to determining if a game was considered "good."
olstar18 23 MAR 2022 a las 10:05 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por ivane:
Publicado originalmente por Kimlin:


"Massed English longbowmen triumphed over French cavalry at Crécy, Poitiers and Agincourt, while at Gisors (1188), Bannockburn (1314), and Laupen (1339),[66] foot-soldiers proved they could resist cavalry charges as long as they held their formation. Once the Swiss developed their pike squares for offensive as well as defensive use, infantry started to become the principal arm. This aggressive new doctrine gave the Swiss victory over a range of adversaries, and their enemies found that the only reliable way to defeat them was by the use of an even more comprehensive combined arms doctrine, as evidenced in the Battle of Marignano. The introduction of missile weapons that required less skill than the longbow, such as the crossbow and hand cannon, also helped remove the focus somewhat from cavalry elites to masses of cheap infantry equipped with easy-to-learn weapons. These missile weapons were very successfully used in the Hussite Wars, in combination with Wagenburg tactics."

They defeated unorganised french charge trough mud. Most of the knights and its leader were captured, not killed.
When long range weapon started to properly penetrate armour, mankind stopped using armour and also stopped fight in malee.
No when long ranged weapons started penetrating armor they made armor heavier and heavier until it was to heavy to cover the whole body and then they started focusing on the chest and head and then gradually wound down to focusing armor to defend blades and bayonets before giving it up.
Kimlin (Bloqueado) 23 MAR 2022 a las 10:33 a. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Grunaldi:
it maybe worth mentioning that on Steam Charts ck2 have all-time-peak of 140k players while ck3 sits on 98k

CK2 peak was 140k 6 years after its release April 2018 that’s also the month it had its highest average player count at 10,000 the next highest average after that was 8,000 for 1 month the for every other month it’s between 1 and 7k with an average of about 3k.

CK3 did have a lower all time peak but the monthly average as been much higher. With a high of 24,000 and it usually being around 10,000. Everyone can have their opinions but the numbers actually say CK3 is more popular than CK2 was.

Actually I rechecked and the highest average was 48,000 players for a month for CK3 my mistake.
Última edición por Kimlin; 23 MAR 2022 a las 10:44 a. m.
AdahnGorion 23 MAR 2022 a las 11:30 a. m. 
Sometimes I am confused about if people ever played CK2 on actual vanilla release
The Hunt 23 MAR 2022 a las 12:03 p. m. 
dont play that game guys its so bad
Shogun_Potatoe 23 MAR 2022 a las 12:39 p. m. 
People still going on about this dribble lame
ivane 23 MAR 2022 a las 2:12 p. m. 
Good luck pening late medieval armour with toy called longbow.
Longbow was useful against lightly armoured troops which was majority back then, not against elite armoured troops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBxdTkddHaE&t=937s
glythe 23 MAR 2022 a las 3:20 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por ivane:
also traits are too few. Character should have much more complex personallity than 3 traits. person should be much more complex than that, this is main reason why we do not remember any of our characters in CK3, they are oversimplified and almost never change after 16 years, so they do not have personallity and we did not remember them

You're not going to like this but characters in Ck3 with only 3 traits have more personality than CK2 characters. Want to know why? In CK3 your 3 traits make you behave in a very predictable way (if you are AI controlled). If you have an honest/content spymaster they won't help anyone spy against you. If you have a deceitful/ambitious spymaster then they might assist in murder plots against you.

Publicado originalmente por ivane:
Imagine you have 2000 heavy elite cavalry and they do only 10% damage because enemy has longbowman, BUUT if you had 2000 light cavalry they would do 100% damage and be 100% usefull! We all know that light cavalry has much much less issue catching bodkin arrows than boys with advanced plate armours right?
Why the F. bows have most stopping power against most armoured units?!

The Men at Arms system is a very predictable paper/rock/scissors counter mechanism.

If you have lots of heavy infantry then you get countered by skirmishers. Meanwhile skirmishers get countered by archers.

Longbowmen (who are special archers) counter Heavy Cavalry and skirmishers. If you purchased heavy cavalry and live next to the English then you have made a blunder by not understanding how unit countering works.

Light cavalry are a flanking unit. They are great at disrupting archers. Heavy cavalry is about a powerful charge into armored units - not about disrupting archers.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2767851158

This is my combat focused guide for CK3 if you would like to know more.

Publicado originalmente por ivane:
Also heavy infantry would not really care about cheap as* skirmishers, there is no way spear chuckers somehow would "counter" medieval heavy infantry. only way to counter medieval heavy infantry is another medieval heavy infantry, or via flanking, which is also not presend in CK3.

The Roman army at its height was a legion of "heavy infantry". The German tribes that wore down Rome's army were skirmishers - think along the lines Vietnam guerilla tactics. They attacked then ran away. The Scots and Irish *tried* to do the same thing to the English during the Medieval period.


Publicado originalmente por ivane:

In CK2 I could build up a character, from weakling to strong experienced ruler which has
backgraound, story and complex mentallity. In CK3 you are stuck with character, which you can not change it after age of 16,

when I play CK3 my whole contentration is to give my hair good 3 traits. Sometimes I am so bored, that I want to commit suicide to start with fresh character. I dont had that feeling in CK2.

So go play CK2 and post on the Ck2 board? In CK3 you get to choose lifestyle traits and that changes your strengths. If you raise the child you get to choose the three primary traits. Often you get 2 of your choosing and have to pick a "not so great one".


Publicado originalmente por ivane:
Good luck pening late medieval armour with toy called longbow.

Skip to ~19 minutes into the video you linked. That is an arrow to the gut and is potentially lethal (look how the impact made the gel shake - you would not want to take that hit). Even as far back as the civil war infections are what caused most battle field deaths. You're wrong if you think things were not way worse during the medieval period.

Also as you point out : most troops were not wearing a breastplate with mail underneath. That is what the rich knights wore.

Also what happens if you turn around and get by an arrow from behind/under the arm/ in a joint? Can it pierce the thickest part of the plate? No. Can it pierce other parts of the armor? Absolutely.
Última edición por glythe; 23 MAR 2022 a las 3:21 p. m.
Wan Yao 23 MAR 2022 a las 4:11 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por ivane:
Imagine you have 2000 heavy elite cavalry and they do only 10% damage because enemy has longbowman, BUUT if you had 2000 light cavalry they would do 100% damage and be 100% usefull! We all know that light cavalry has much much less issue catching bodkin arrows than boys with advanced plate armours right?
Why the F. bows have most stopping power against most armoured units?!
There is reason why people wore armour and why they fought in malee....

Also heavy infantry would not really care about cheap as* skirmishers, there is no way spear chuckers somehow would "counter" medieval heavy infantry. only way to counter medieval heavy infantry is another medieval heavy infantry, or via flanking, which is also not presend in CK3.

there is odd things about CK3 and I am glad that at least some people can see that.

You really need to learn how arms and armour actually, factually work. There are a lot of great youtube channels run by HEMA practitioners, historians, etc. that can teach you, as well as historical channels that talk about real battles and battle tactics.

Just for a start, arrows absolutely CAN pierce plate armour. Plate armour is not invincible. Plate armour was designed to stop slashing weapons and in that role it was highly effective. But against bashing and piercing attacks it was much less effective. You see this in the design of weapons that were made specifically to combat plate. But even if it were invincible, as you seem to think, take note of the time frame of this game versus the time frame when plate armour was historically used.

Have to be rude here, no way around it. Your ideas about medieval arms and armour come from Hollywood, not from history.

Última edición por Wan Yao; 23 MAR 2022 a las 4:15 p. m.
Bolovo 23 MAR 2022 a las 4:31 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por ivane:
Main thing which I liked in CK2 more is that you are developing your character, life and your decitions are changing your character. For example Even if you have weak character at young age, you can still become efitient by achieving things. For example if you win battles, you will become good strategist no matter how unexperienced your character was at age 16. In CK3 you just stuck with your character and its 3 traits, doesnot matter how great deeds you achieve. you rarly can change traits or skills...


also traits are too few. Character should have much more complex personallity than 3 traits. person should be much more complex than that, this is main reason why we do not remember any of our characters in CK3, they are oversimplified and almost never change after 16 years, so they do not have personallity and we did not remember them... I played whole game as byzantine in CK3 on ironman and had much less imertion than with 1 character in CK2. this can not be accident

Another big thing is warfare. It was so damn immersing in CK2, you have 2 generals on flanks, different battle phases, duels in middle of battles.. having weak general could become big problemm.
Also in CK3 if you have castle, enemy is automaticly on the attacking side when you appear and that is really stupid. if enemy is besieging your settlement that does not mean that he has to attack you when you show up. I can even show you historical evidence. look how ceasar fought gouls in Battle of Alesia. He has besieged Gouls and built another wall around camp, so when gouls came they also had to besiege Ceasars camp.

My biggest problem is dumbing down game is intentional to make game much more easy for casual players, but that also makes it boring in a big time. It is shame, I hope paradox will change that philosophy and make CK3 as complex as CK2, but sadly I dont think so. We are in modern era, where every game has to be dumbed down, even grand strategy... shame

this is such a nonsensical post. First of all, why the hell would you compare a 10 year old game to one that has just got its first dlc? The comparison should be against ck2 at launch or a little more than 1 year from launch, it makes no sense whatsoever to try and transpose the bloatness of that game to ck3 as an argument.

As to your arguments, i wonder what you mean as "personality". Yes, you cannot accrue as many traits in CK3, but you end up getting a ridiculously high amount of modifiers contigent not only on the standardized life paths but also from the events that depend on said personality traits. This is not something present in CK2. In Ck2 your personality traits were absolutely inconsequential beyond the marginal modifiers they had. At most they would function somewhat as deterrents for the AI. For the player at the end of the day it didn't really matter at all that you could have all of the 7 virtues or sins, you could still powerplay because the choices available to you weren't dependent on them. On the contrary, they are generally the consequences of your choices. You didn't behave in a specific manner because you were just. You became just because you, as a player, behaved in a certain way. And this came at no price at all. You could have developed an arbitrary personality as a child. Because every choice is available at all times, you needed only choose that administration ck2 life path and in less than a year, by making choices in the respective events completely out of character, you could not only lose the trait but gain Just. How is that good personality building? CK3 personalities aren't nearly as static as you think. They are just not as nonsensically flexible as in CK2. And that's a good thing from a RP perspective. Besides, I wonder what you think is an experienced ruler. Given enough time and the correct choices, every single ruler in CK2 would become the same. All virtues, no sins, gregarius, 4 star education etc. In CK3, by having fewer and more significant personality traits, every character feels actually different from each other. And they behave so.

As for your other points, the warfare one is absolutely nuts; Why the hell do you think that CK2 warfare was better? The retinues were absolutely broken, there were many that weren't even viable because of massive bugs (like cataphracts firing light cavalry tactics, which actually HAMPER the horse archers in them, because HA are considered LC in the stupid code), and the flanks were of no consequence. Unless you were already massive to have an entire army of retinues (at which point the game was already over), you would be dealing with static levies over which you have no agency at all. The entire warfare system is wasted for the immense majority of the troops fighting in the game because you cannot organize the levies. Fancy that. Literally the only thing that you had in CK2 that is not present in CK3 are flank commanders. Which could be interesting, but aren't that big of a loss. Instead we got a much more intuitive, clear and functional model to work with that is miles better anything else both from CK2 and EUIV.

Finally, the dumbing down pertains to my very first point. CK2 is hard to learn. It's not a hard game in the strict sense of the word by any means. Such is also the case with CK3, because both aren't meant to be conventionally "hard". I'm very curious to hear from you what part of the game you think is dumbed down. But remember that you have to take into account that the comparison only makes sense with CK2 at launch/1 year from release.
gachi is manly 23 MAR 2022 a las 5:34 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por VoiD:
Yes, CK3 is an empty husk compared to CK2, with a better presentation.

Which is not so bad, everyone was expecting ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of content to be released after CK3's great release, it was probably the best paradox launch ever, great score, well received, everyone loved it, and it was easy to learn.

But then we've waited for over 2 years and no real content was developed to the game, the first DLC doesn't even count as a flavor pack, and this last DLC is very light even compared to regular CK2 DLC, so the game's kinda dead.

Agreed. Base game was fine for what it was, although kinda barren. The fact all we've really gotten since is the royal court dlc is pretty lame, though. I feel like CK2 released like 3-4 decent dlc in the span of time it's taken this game to get 1 overpriced one. Smaller in scope, sure, but also felt like they fleshed out the game more.

It's inexcusable, really. Paradox is a much bigger company than back when they were pumping out CK2 dlc, and CK3 sold more comparatively within the same time span. Covid issues can only excuse so much.

Oh well, I'll keep checking back every year or so to see the progress. Maybe after 6 years they'll have 3 dlc out and it will finally be more fleshed out than CK2.
Última edición por gachi is manly; 23 MAR 2022 a las 5:50 p. m.
Panthaz89 23 MAR 2022 a las 5:45 p. m. 
Publicado originalmente por Triangle:
Publicado originalmente por jerrypocalypse:
If you're concerned about which game more people enjoy, it's interesting you'd simply just list the number of peak people playing at the exact same time
But Paradox does see who's playing what. In fact, I'd argue one of the main reason CK3's DLC had a price hike was because of the series' lower player count. Maybe Paradox assumed those who played CK3 are more dedicated to the series and therefor it'd make up for the shortfall. It'd be interesting to see if the price hike remains even after the pre-order stops being relevant and the new game smell wears off.

Anyways, in Paradox's case, player count can inform content and how much of it we get for better or worse.
Although, I would agree that player count doesn't reflect how much you personally can enjoy a game which is probably what matters more in the end, but that's also the thing which is hard to actually tell at first glance.
CK 2 is also currently F2P so anybody can get it with no investment at all for a while now.
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