Why does the Welsh Culture have concubines???

[xXrydervapesXx]

Just as the title says. Is there some sort of historical precedent for why the Welsh are able to take concubines or was it some sort of mistake? I know the Pictish and Cumbrians, other Brittonic Cultures, also have this tenet, but the Cornish and Bretons don't? So is it a Brittonic thing but only for the northern Britons or what?

I'd like to see the reasoning behind this, especially since it never lasts long as the Pope always immediately gets mad at you for it and demands you get rid of it.

[Kvinden]

It is because it is cultural, not religious.
Goidelic culture, not catholic faith.
It is not a tenet but a tradition

[glythe]

Norsemen settled in England. Norsemen had concubines.

[lemurs2]

The Welsh maybe should have no bastardry and male cheating accepted, but then you would need a different religion, either Insular or a new Celtic church.
Concubines were known but declining through this period. By ~1300 they were gone.

[Toblm]

Originally posted by lemurs2:

Concubines were known but declining through this period. By ~1300 they were gone.

This is exactly what is represented in game. Something that exists at the start of a playthough but falls out of favor, specifically due to influence from the Catholic church.

[lemurs2]

Toblm, exactly, I just wish they had not put some of this as cultural and some as religious, gets a bit messy.

[Toblm]

Originally posted by lemurs2:

Toblm, exactly, I just wish they had not put some of this as cultural and some as religious, gets a bit messy.

It makes a lot of sense to me that some marriage customs are cultural and some are religious. They are in real life, and they are just as messy. Picking out which marriage customs are cultural and which are religious, even a modern fairly secular marriage ceremony.

[dwarfpcfan]

On a related note I noticed a tendency for Welsh, Cornish and to a lesser extent Wessex A.I rulers to convert to insular christianity from catholicism on a fairly regular basis in my playthroughs. As well as Norse A.I rulers in Ireland merging their culture with Irish.

In all of those cases the one thing that always happens in these A.I rulers going for the multiple wives option offered by either the religion or culture.

Which to me is hilarious because monogamy with no concubines and only a few kids creates much stronger, stable realms because it ensure you don't end up with your kingdom fracturing appart as each kid end up with like 1 county and then they are too weak to deal with ambitious vassals.

Also the reason why I consider the restraint perk in learning so useful.

[Iorwerth ap Dderwen Wyllt]

Lizabeth Johnson Ph.D has written many articles on this exact subject, in summary nope

[lemurs2]

expound

[Iorwerth ap Dderwen Wyllt]

Hywel Dda formalised Welsh law around 942 and made it illegal, if a man committed adultery the wife could divorce him and be entitled to financial compensation. She was also entitled to strike the woman he cheated with (even if it resulted in death). This law covered both concubinage and prostitution, there is some confusion about which is which due to the names for both being very similar in Welsh.

There is also a misconception of multiple wives being common in Wales, multiple forms of marriage were legal but you could only have one and could only marry again if you were divorced and had paid your ex wife compensation for divorcing her. The multiple forms of marriage were actually just the form the marriage took place, they were contextual names for different ways a couple got married.

For example a woman could be married by being given to someone by her father, or a woman could elope with a man and be married without the consent of her kin (Hywel Dda is very modern for the 900's) A marriage via eloping and therefore without consent of her kin would be considered a normal marriage after 7 years.

All these laws were repealed after the conquest in the thirteenth century, concubinage and prostitution were legalised and then popularised by the new Norman marcher lords, the "amobr" was kept though. Originally the "amobr" was a fine payable to the king by anyone who committed sexual misconduct (adultery), but after the conquest it was used solely to punish women and raise money for the marcher lords.

Again Lizabeth Johnson Ph.D of New Mexico University wrote an article "Prostitutes and Concubinage" it takes a very deep dive into this subject in the context of early middle age Wales. Although there are many people who have covered this particular area of history, Wendy Davies Ph.D, OBE, FBA, FSA and FLSW is a very accomplished historian who wrote a book called "Welsh History in the Early Middle Ages" and covers this time period. If you're interested in the subject I thoroughly recommend both their works.

Personally I don't mind Paradox adding flavour that is historically inaccurate "Celtic" or Insular Christianity isn't a real thing as it's portrayed in the game, Wendy Davies Ph.D has on occasion fought against the notion of a "Celtic" church, saying that it is unhelpful and actively harmful to those trying to study history. But in the context of a game it's fine to add incorrect details if it adds some extra gameplay element, and with a game that covers so many centuries across multiple continents it is impossible to get every detail correct.

[lemurs2]

Iorwerth, I think you are reading too much into the game's descriptions. You could easily say that there is only two Christian religions in the game, Nicaean Christianity and Nestorian.
Do not think of Insular Christianity as a separate church, think of it as a way for Paradox to show regional differentiations.

And even Wendy Davies admitted that the Welsh church did not follow Rome's laws until after the Norman conquest.

[ChopSuey™]

Is, only game. Have fun. No??

[xXrydervapesXx]

Wow Iorwerth thank you very much for that detailed explanation! Exactly the type of answer I was looking for. I had assumed that the concubine culture tennet was meant to represent a more loose view of marriage culturally, and it seems that's about accurate. Again, I appreciate it!