Rebellions are still completely busted

[No I think Not]

Theres not a single game Ive played where any empire lasts for more then 50 years, all it takes is for two or more vassals to rebel to comepletely shatter any attempt at a nation. As the player, the rebellion mechanic becomes cancer beyond reckoning, the moment a succession happens every single vassal will join a claiment faction, which late game can be easily fixed through bribes and is a comeplete joke but in the early game it makes building anything remotely bigger then a duchy absolutly abhorent, the AI as per usual is rigged against the player and will pursue a rebellion against you even when the country is being invade on two fronts, if it was a AI faction a white peace would be signed immediatly making it even more of a BS mechanic.

There needs to be some kind of change, Ive said it before, but there is no functional reason why you should ever play as a independant rather then a vassal, the game is way too punishing towards independent rulers. Oh and one more thing, peasant revolts are infinite, for the love of god at least put a 5 year cooldown on when they can form.

[No I think Not]

To put some weight behind what Im saying, Ill outline a game that went quite well for me. As Kalinga Gange in india I pushed out, landing my claiment children in duchies as I went, conquered dravidia and formed a kingdom, made my own religion, conquered the rest of india and became lord of the ganges and samrat charkarivan of all of the indian subcontinent before 1100 ad, I still upgraded all my holdings and constantly invested in men at arms along the way, and to be fair I did have a bad rebellion near the beginning and had routine peasant revolts 24/7. But afterwards it was a steamroll across the subcontinent. You do not have to just play tall, but the sheer amount of benifits weighted for playing as a tall vassal rather then anything else especially in the early game is insane.

[ste]

No I think Not eredeti hozzászólása:

ste eredeti hozzászólása:

I agree with you on that, but players should not be forced down one particular play style, there should be more naunce to playing wide. Instead of the only optimal way to play being to go tall. Its not a matter of control, but of player choice.

Play wide and tall, its getting the balance right. Growing wide helps you grow tall and vice versa. The richer and stronger you are the faster you can grow wider and taller.
you can play any play style but if it keeps getting you killed in any other game you'd maybe change it. Learn what works, learn what doesnt. Your playstyle is the same as mine. Paint the map as fast as possible, but I dont seem to have as problems with revolts and my realm collapsing from the inside.

[Tarshaid]

Forblaze eredeti hozzászólása:

So I actually looked up the requirements for the AI to join a claimant faction. They need 25 points to join one. All things equal, at crown authority 1, the AI already has 10 points towards joining one. At crown authority 3 or 4, they have 20. There are modifiers for things like wrong gender, too young, too old, culture, and religion that all give 25-50 points, but the most fluid one is opinion. They get an amount of points equal to 1.5x their opinion of both the claimant and liege (so 100 opinion of you is -150, 100 opinion of the claimant is +150). So at crown authority 3, they only need to make up 5 points worth of opinion modifier.

So the issue is that treason has an insanely low barrier to entry.

Huh, that effectively sounds pretty low. Also feels like I should be seeing more claimant factions than that. Although considering that claimants will tend to have similar culture/religion to you, be younger than you (and you shouldn't inherit the throne at 70 so start too old), and that your char should most often be of the right gender, unless there are serious personnality matches/mismatches, the main difference between vassals' opinion of you and of claimants should come from "short/long reign" modifiers (improving with time, once again so that "too old" shouldn't be an issue), personal contracts of vassals (if they already have favorable contracts from supporting claimants too much, that should be a positive for the liege), and stuff like the liege's level of fame/devotion, which should never be high for an unlanded character while any semi successful ruler should see that grow a bit with time.

If anything, that sounds like kingdoms where vassals have already been screwing around and granting themselves priviledges should finally stop rebelling all over the place. Ah, but there's the "powerful vassal" negative opinion modifier as well, in which case they will basically support anything but their current liege.

Also, considering that a vassal should only be able to join a single faction (I think), what would cause them to choose a claimant faction over a liberty faction (or the opposite) at any given point?

[ste]

If you give your kids duchies and make them too powerful when you die they will turn on you unless you are tall enough to stop them reaching however much % they need to rebel.

If they rebel you give them too much power and yourself not enough

[Forblaze]

Tarshaid eredeti hozzászólása:

Huh, that effectively sounds pretty low. Also feels like I should be seeing more claimant factions than that. Although considering that claimants will tend to have similar culture/religion to you, be younger than you (and you shouldn't inherit the throne at 70 so start too old), and that your char should most often be of the right gender, unless there are serious personnality matches/mismatches, the main difference between vassals' opinion of you and of claimants should come from "short/long reign" modifiers (improving with time, once again so that "too old" shouldn't be an issue), personal contracts of vassals (if they already have favorable contracts from supporting claimants too much, that should be a positive for the liege), and stuff like the liege's level of fame/devotion, which should never be high for an unlanded character while any semi successful ruler should see that grow a bit with time.

If anything, that sounds like kingdoms where vassals have already been screwing around and granting themselves priviledges should finally stop rebelling all over the place. Ah, but there's the "powerful vassal" negative opinion modifier as well, in which case they will basically support anything but their current liege.

Also, considering that a vassal should only be able to join a single faction (I think), what would cause them to choose a claimant faction over a liberty faction (or the opposite) at any given point?

That was all to join, not create. They're also weighted to join existing or stronger factions when they would support multiple claimants. The AI will avoid liberty factions if they qualify to join other factions.

[Duuvian]

I have 2 counties in my personal demesne which are both in my primary duchy. I've found with partition that if you make sure all the heirs (male children unless yours laws are different than mine were at the time) have at least 1 county, it won't partition the counties in the primary duchy.

That does mean you will have to give out every county except those in your primary duchy before you die though. You'll also want to make and give out higher titles so they don't get created and doled out automatically on partition.

One thing that I think helped was giving the primary heir the non-capital counties in the primary duchy (which they can be given once the other heirs are landed with a county). That way they start with those established upon you taking control.

One of my rulers had a whole bunch of heirs and I just conquered more neighbors or revoked titles from naughty vassals so I could give them each a county; worked out well.

Another neat trick is that while you can't grant titles to your primary heir besides a few exceptions, you can grant titles to your heir's heir. That means you can load them up with titles and regain control later, so you can start with more powerbase or hand them out to transfer them to de jure lieges and make positive opinion that way.

I guess that could backfire if the heir's heir is ambitious though

[Razorblade]

You should be fine as the player. Make a few tactical marriages with your vassals, and you'll never have a single rebellion. Peasant rebellions should also be a non-issue, unless you're expanding too fast in infidel territory. In which case, you should be punished for aggressively expanding without converting your provinces.

I do agree that this needs some work for the AI to make them a little more stable. However, that should come from making the AI competent at playing the game, rather than from just hard-nerfing mechanics.

[boo]

Three words: Dread, dread and most importantly.... DREAD.

Keep it at 100 and never worry about rebellions again. One weird trick vassals hate it.

[No I think Not]

Razorblade eredeti hozzászólása:

You should be fine as the player. Make a few tactical marriages with your vassals, and you'll never have a single rebellion. Peasant rebellions should also be a non-issue, unless you're expanding too fast in infidel territory. In which case, you should be punished for aggressively expanding without converting your provinces.

I do agree that this needs some work for the AI to make them a little more stable. However, that should come from making the AI competent at playing the game, rather than from just hard-nerfing mechanics.

If only we could have a competent AI, now that would actually be a universal improvement we could probably all agree upon. Unfortunatly more then likely paradox will simply changes things around or nerf the mechanics rather then that =/.

[No I think Not]

boo eredeti hozzászólása:

Three words: Dread, dread and most importantly.... DREAD.

Keep it at 100 and never worry about rebellions again. One weird trick vassals hate it.

Actually yeah, most of the time dread can really cheese through rebellions, extorting subjects with high dread can bring in heaps of gold while maintaining control. Although your options getting dread are limited if youve just been through succession and have a total of 6 months to prepare for a massive claiment revolt.

[boo]

No I think Not eredeti hozzászólása:

boo eredeti hozzászólása:

Three words: Dread, dread and most importantly.... DREAD.

Keep it at 100 and never worry about rebellions again. One weird trick vassals hate it.

Actually yeah, most of the time dread can really cheese through rebellions, extorting subjects with high dread can bring in heaps of gold while maintaining control. Although your options can be limited if youve just been through succession and have a total of 6 months to prepare for a massive claiment revolt.

haha yeah it's total cheese but it works. And yes sometimes It won't work if you forgot to prepare. But every good father should fill up their prison with prisoners (preferably infidels) so the new lordling can execute and have some left over for some time.

[snuggleform]

Forblaze eredeti hozzászólása:

So I actually looked up the requirements for the AI to join a claimant faction. They need 25 points to join one. All things equal, at crown authority 1, the AI already has 10 points towards joining one. At crown authority 3 or 4, they have 20. There are modifiers for things like wrong gender, too young, too old, culture, and religion that all give 25-50 points, but the most fluid one is opinion. They get an amount of points equal to 1.5x their opinion of both the claimant and liege (so 100 opinion of you is -150, 100 opinion of the claimant is +150). So at crown authority 3, they only need to make up 5 points worth of opinion modifier. There's zero consideration for the status quo, military strength, or risk.

So the issue is that treason has an insanely low barrier to entry.

Interesting to know, I did always suspect claimant factions were harder to diffuse than normal ones.

Do you have a quick breakdown for normal factions? And rebelling against tyranny?

[Forblaze]

snuggleform eredeti hozzászólása:

Interesting to know, I did always suspect claimant factions were harder to diffuse than normal ones.

Do you have a quick breakdown for normal factions? And rebelling against tyranny?

I'm abridging out some fringe intuitive stuff, which there is a lot of (i.e., they don't like if have the incapable trait, they're less likely to join if they're engaged in another war, etc. )

Independence Faction
needs 150 to join
-1,5 per 1 point of positive opinion of liege
+0.5 per 1 point of negative opinion
+25/50/100 for astray/hostile/evil faith.
-25 for liege same culture
+25 for different culture, +50 for different culture group (stacking)
-50 if title has an election law. Doesn't seem to care which.
+125 if not rightful liege
+sub realm size (Not clear on how this is different than realm size, code is commented to say this is to make larger realms less stable, so I don't think it's just the title being targeted.)
+25 if faction targets a kingdom tier title
-50 if you have Toe the LIne, -25 if you have Stem Duchies
+25 per sin, -25 per virtue
+10 to +60 depending on debt level (not sure how this is defined exactly)

Liberty Faction
Needs 0 to join
+10 per level of crown authority
-10 per liege virtue with legalism tenet (no inverse for sins)
1:1 opinion modifier (+100 score at -100 opinion)

Again, these are all join modifiers, which aren't necessarily the same as create modifiers. No mention of the word 'tyranny' or 'tyrant' in either though.

[No I think Not]

Forblaze eredeti hozzászólása:

So I actually looked up the requirements for the AI to join a claimant faction. They need 25 points to join one. All things equal, at crown authority 1, the AI already has 10 points towards joining one. At crown authority 3 or 4, they have 20. There are modifiers for things like wrong gender, too young, too old, culture, and religion that all give 25-50 points, but the most fluid one is opinion. They get an amount of points equal to 1.5x their opinion of both the claimant and liege (so 100 opinion of you is -150, 100 opinion of the claimant is +150). So at crown authority 3, they only need to make up 5 points worth of opinion modifier. There's zero consideration for the status quo, military strength, or risk.

So the issue is that treason has an insanely low barrier to entry.

Now that... actually makes alot of sense, a succession therefore would instantly create a claiment faction regardless in most circumstances just due to the -20 short reign opinion penalty. As for the rest of what you said, Liberty faction having a requirement of 0 definitly adds up, theres not a game Ive played where there hasnt had a liberty faction with under 50% strength. Save for when Ive mostly maintained 100 dread 24/7. Independence lines up about right as well, as Ive never seen same culture group/religion and within de jure vassals join up.

Thanks for diggin up the info, sheds some light on things.

[snuggleform]

Forblaze eredeti hozzászólása:

snuggleform eredeti hozzászólása:

Interesting to know, I did always suspect claimant factions were harder to diffuse than normal ones.

Do you have a quick breakdown for normal factions? And rebelling against tyranny?

I'm abridging out some fringe intuitive stuff, which there is a lot of (i.e., they don't like if have the incapable trait, they're less likely to join if they're engaged in another war, etc. )

Independence Faction
needs 150 to join
-1,5 per 1 point of positive opinion of liege
+0.5 per 1 point of negative opinion
+25/50/100 for astray/hostile/evil faith.
-25 for liege same culture
+25 for different culture, +50 for different culture group (stacking)
-50 if title has an election law. Doesn't seem to care which.
+125 if not rightful liege
+sub realm size (Not clear on how this is different than realm size, code is commented to say this is to make larger realms less stable, so I don't think it's just the title being targeted.)
+25 if faction targets a kingdom tier title
-50 if you have Toe the LIne, -25 if you have Stem Duchies
+25 per sin, -25 per virtue
+10 to +60 depending on debt level (not sure how this is defined exactly)

Liberty Faction
Needs 0 to join
+10 per level of crown authority
-10 per liege virtue with legalism tenet (no inverse for sins)
1:1 opinion modifier (+100 score at -100 opinion)

Again, these are all join modifiers, which aren't necessarily the same as create modifiers. No mention of the word 'tyranny' or 'tyrant' in either though.

God bless your soul.

Are you able to dig any info about factions that fight specifically against tyranny? aka when you arrest someone, and they resist, then which other vassals join those fights?