Tribal governments too easy/broken?

[Die Dame des Berges]

I started as Bjorn Ironside and in 5 generations I controlled the empire of scandinavia+britannia+west francia+more scattered territories that my vassals grabbed
my total levy size was about 40.000 and I reached the point that I no longer cared about fighting battles because i had enough troops to carpet siege every enemy into surrender. And I have played without any rush, I don't doubt that a more aggressive and experienced player might have completed it in just 1-2 lifetimes.

Not even once I have faced a rebellious vassal factions, never had succession troubles because the endless conquest and unlimited cbs always bring new land for heirs and I never faced a claiment faction, and frankly the levy size of tribal governments in the game is complete nonsense in a historical context. Theres just no way that the impoverished and unpopulated tribal kingdoms in scandinavia/britain would constantly outnumber realms like france/germany

[Average AMD neanderthal]

broken for the player yes. because the player knows how to make efficient use of the snowball effect. it won't serve you forever though. feudalism is another ball game. and you'll have to embrace it before feudal realms get too much time to tech up in the 1000s when early feudal techs hit, or be outmatched in gold income, MAA size and MAA quality.
staying tribal forever is possible, but you will not unlock tech beyond tribal. and that will bite you the longer you wait with it. because empires will have armies big enough to put your army through a meatgrinder as time goes on.

[D34DLY]

yeah, tribal government should be toned down a bit. My hodge-podge of low development counties should not have twice the troops of the Byzantine empire.

[snuggleform]

Being locked to confederate partition is a major pain in the arse for me when I play tribals.

[Cry Me A Salt River]

Feudal lords are limited (specially in early game) by their feudal contract and crown authority in regard to their ability to receive taxes and levies. Tribal lord however, have it much easier in this aspect as they receive taxes/levies scaling with their level of fame. This contrast of economic and military power tends to favor the tribals allowing them to bully feudals as they please.

Speaking about level of fame, it's not too difficult to boost it fast which allows you to get a lot more from your vassals. And it snowballs hard. Being tribal, as you fight battles and conquer, you get higher level of fame that gives you even more troops and money... which you will reinvest into more conquest. So yes, it means tribals have it very easy to conquer and expand quickly.

That being said, there is another side of the coin: feudalizing. The moment you decide to go feudal you need to have in mind what an impact it will cause to you. Suddenly your levy numbers plummet just as your money. Now suddenly you are not receiving those huge "tributes" from your vassals (and let's not forget that now you pay money instead of prestige for men-at-arms) so it can severely cripple you realm if you are not prepared for it (which also somewhat slows down your reckless conquest I guess). This incentivizes tribals to stay as long as it is possible tribal (within a limit of course, as another issue pointed below arises) to be able to conquer more land non-stop.

Now, tribals can't research past tribal tech so that means that, sooner or later, they all should be willing to feudalize if they don't want to lag behind in research. The research issue should be the balancing factor which can balance the scales of the "tribal-feudal" dilemma as it, in theory, allows feudals to be ahead economically and militarily but it ultimately isn't a big issue. At game start the feudals are simply not far enough ahead in tech for it to be an issue for the tribals. And tribals, after enough conquest has been achieved, can always choose to feudalize themselves (now having all those newly conquered, juicy, highly developed counties under them) easily catching up. I will admit it's not always the case. There are a lot of remote places in the map where even after hundreds of years the surrounding regions remain very underdeveloped with local lords remaining tribal and quite weak but there are always "the big winners" which do stick out (looking at you norsemen).

One solution for the insane ability of the tribals to expand quickly could be to boost feudal defensive options in some way; allowing them to reach further techs to even the odds. Like for example when tribals use conquest casus belli on their neighbors, it would allow the defender's bordering feudals to join defensively with less restrictions... something along these lines.

[Average AMD neanderthal]

引用自 Chuck Norris：

Feudal lords are limited (specially in early game) by their feudal contract and crown authority in regard to their ability to receive taxes and levies. Tribal lord however, have it much easier in this aspect as they receive taxes/levies scaling with their level of fame. This contrast of economic and military power tends to favor the tribals allowing them to bully feudals as they please.

Speaking about level of fame, it's not too difficult to boost it fast which allows you to get a lot more from your vassals. And it snowballs hard. Being tribal, as you fight battles and conquer, you get higher level of fame that gives you even more troops and money... which you will reinvest into more conquest. So yes, it means tribals have it very easy to conquer and expand quickly.

That being said, there is another side of the coin: feudalizing. The moment you decide to go feudal you need to have in mind what an impact it will cause to you. Suddenly your levy numbers plummet just as your money. Now suddenly you are not receiving those huge "tributes" from your vassals (and let's not forget that now you pay money instead of prestige for men-at-arms) so it can severely cripple you realm if you are not prepared for it (which also somewhat slows down your reckless conquest I guess). This incentivizes tribals to stay as long as it is possible tribal (within a limit of course, as another issue pointed below arises) to be able to conquer more land non-stop.

Now, tribals can't research past tribal tech so that means that, sooner or later, they all should be willing to feudalize if they don't want to lag behind in research. The research issue should be the balancing factor which can balance the scales of the "tribal-feudal" dilemma as it, in theory, allows feudals to be ahead economically and militarily but it ultimately isn't a big issue. At game start the feudals are simply not far enough ahead in tech for it to be an issue for the tribals. And tribals, after enough conquest has been achieved, can always choose to feudalize themselves (now having all those newly conquered, juicy, highly developed counties under them) easily catching up. I will admit it's not always the case. There are a lot of remote places in the map where even after hundreds of years the surrounding regions remain very underdeveloped with local lords remaining tribal and quite weak but there are always "the big winners" which do stick out (looking at you norsemen).

One solution for the insane ability of the tribals to expand quickly could be to boost feudal defensive options in some way; allowing them to reach further techs to even the odds. Like for example when tribals use conquest casus belli on their neighbors, it would allow the defender's bordering feudals to join defensively with less restrictions... something along these lines.

there should be actual the enemy of my enemy is my friend wars anyway. right now there is no one stopping the player or any usurping AI from snowballing. because they aren't powerful enough. and they can't work together unless there's an alliance. which needs marriage or 2 diplomat perks. there should be a treshold where a bunch of realms say: okay, we really need to make a faction to stop this conqueror from expanding and laying waste to our realms.

this could be something that ticks up slowly and decays over time, but can drastically build up based on how many offensive wars and what the size of the conquest is. with able participants being determined by recent losses of wars against the target.

[Cry Me A Salt River]

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