Let us convert the Mecca Mosque to a Cathedral.

[Tethryss]

As it stands now, Hagia Sophia can be made a mosque.
So let us turn the Meccan Mosque into a cathedral and thus the slot isn't useless.

[therealjohnconnor]

A large part of the history of the Spanish Reconquesta was about converting mosques into cathedrals - there is still controversy in Cordoba about the status of the ex-mosque there to this day. Realistic if CK3 replicated this across the board, rather than just for particularly well-known historical examples like the Hagia. As to Christian pilgrims not wanting to visit a conquered+converted Mecca to gloat as it's "in the middle of a desert" (no doubt rededicated to 'St George' or somesuch Medieval expedient), they were happy enough to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

[Razorblade]

引用自 EA Latium：

I do agree with what you are saying Razor, but to be fair neither the Hagia Sofia was important to Islam before. I'm of the opinion that it should have some effects of some sort if taken, it's such an important location that would be bound to have at least an impact.

Obviously didn't happen in history so it's harder to imagine something that makes real sense.

Constantinople became the center of the Islamic world for hundreds of years after it was taken, though. It was the world's greatest city west of China; a strategically and economically vital location that any conqueror would make their home, given the chance. You're comparing the City of the World's Desire to some place in the desert that only has significance to one religious group.

引用自 therealjohnconnor：

A large part of the history of the Spanish Reconquesta was about converting mosques into cathedrals - there is still controversy in Cordoba about the status of the ex-mosque there to this day. Realistic if CK3 replicated this across the board, rather than just for particularly well-known historical examples like the Hagia. As to Christian pilgrims not wanting to visit a conquered+converted Mecca to gloat as it's "in the middle of a desert" (no doubt rededicated to 'St George' or somesuch Medieval expedient), they were happy enough to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

History would suggest otherwise. Christians didn't take pilgrimages to Irminsul after Charlemagne's forces conquered it. They didn't take pilgrimages to Bohemia to laugh at the defeated Hussites. They didn't visit Denmark to see the ruins of Viking religious sites.

Sure, these places would be tourist attractions in the modern day, but they never picked up religious significance for Christians, and it's doubtful that Mecca, a city in the middle of the desert, with no inherent value and no religious value, would become a pilgrimage site, especially when literally every other Christian Holy Site is closer to the lands of Christendom.

[EA Latium]

That's my point, it became something after being conquered (not that it matters, but it wasn't that important anymore at that point, it had a serious decline). I imagine if Crusaders managed to capture the Mecca it wouldn't have been left just sitting there for example, maybe it could have become a place for scholar studies or something. I'm not comparing the actual cities by the way, but only the two places of worship.

[Sol]

引用自 Das Boot：

引用自 Razorblade：

That doesn't really make sense, though. The only reason to go to some city in the middle of the desert is religious significance, and Christians have no attachment to Mecca. A big cathedral only makes you money if people have a reason to go there.

If crusaders conquered Mecca then they'd want to do something to the Mecca Mosque to stick their tongues out at the Muslim world. Apart from burning the building to the ground, turning it into a Christian place of worship would accomplish this goal.

Speaking of which, I wish there was a way to turn the Hagia Sophia into a Catholic place of worship. I had a game where I converted to Catholicism as a Byzantine emperor and this giant christian church consequently started gathering dust.

I want to convert BOTH temples to Asatru and stick my tongue out at all of you Abrahamists. Just let us convert the "Main Event" sites to any Reformed Faith.

[Razorblade]

引用自 EA Latium：

That's my point, it became something after being conquered (not that it matters, but it wasn't that important anymore at that point, it had a serious decline). I imagine if Crusaders managed to capture the Mecca it wouldn't have been left just sitting there for example, maybe it could have become a place for scholar studies or something. I'm not comparing the actual cities by the way, but only the two places of worship.

The Hagia Sophia was only important to Muslims because Constantinople was important to everyone west of India, though. Like I said, people literally called it the City of the World's Desire, because everyone wanted it's strategic and economic position.
Constantinople has inherent value, and so it's people need a place to worship.

Mecca's only significance, meanwhile, is the fact the Muhammad declared it significant. Without the Hajj, the city probably would have become largely abandoned. Not a single Caliphate made their home in Mecca, even Muhammad's own Caliphate, because the city is just not that valuable when you take away the religious significance. You shouldn't compare Mecca to Constantinople, but rather to Rome, or Canterbury, or Semien. If the devs let us convert the Mecca mosque, they may as well let us do it with any religion's Holy Sites, but that would be OP as hell.

[EA Latium]

You are missing my point, I clearly said that I'm not comparing the two cities to begin with, nor that it should necessarily become a church, but just have an effect as a "place of interest", because as a matter of fact, it is one.

To be fair I wouldn't even compare it to Rome or Canterbury at all, but more like Stonehenge.

[Tethryss]

引用自 CrUsHeR：

引用自 Peroxide：

1453 is the end date.

But because you are Christian you cannot actually obtain any benefit from owning Mecca.

So what?

For example, the Archduchy of Austria was founded in 1453, but there is a decision to form it at any date in CK3.

https://ck3.paradoxwikis.com/Decisions


Mecca has no meaning to anyone who isn't muslim. It was not a metropolis like Cairo, Baghdad and such. The fundamentalist and xenophobic catholics would likely have destroyed it.

The Hagia Sofia obviously impressed the Osmans because it was the world's largest building of its kind. Besides being located in Constantinople.

The Muslims were literally just as bad as the Catholics at the time. Nobody was innocent so don't start spouting political crap here.

The point is, Hagia Sophia WAS important to Christians and it had no purpose to the Muslims either.

Austria itself is dated back to the 13th century and didn't obtain prominence until the early 15th century.
I was making the point that Historically the point of Hagia Sophia being turned into a mosque doesn't matter in the CK3 timeline.
Mecca also mind you WAS an important location in Arabia as the Kaaba served as a shrine for many religions and cults to gather and pay worship to their gods before the rise of islam and during this time, the Christians and Muslims were in a fight for supremacy and to spit on the muslims by destroying the Kaaba or the Meccan Mosque would be a goal of the period, it was a point that the Turks made by desecrating Hagia Sophia.

You SHOULD be allowed to either destroy or change Mecca.

[Tethryss]

引用自 M82：

We should be able to burn it down, as there is NO way the Christians in the 11th century would allow a Muslim holy site to stay intact. However I don't think it'd become a cathedral, because no Christian would bother going there unless you convert the local populace to Christian

Crusaders definitely but an actual king or Emperor MIGHT make it a sight that would show the supremacy of Christianity over Islam in a hypothetical world where Christianity beat Islam. That didn't happen so we don't know, its the same kind of spit in the face that Hagia Sophia being turned to a Mosque was.

[Tethryss]

引用自 Razorblade：

引用自 Zero, Dark Knight：

Since when is this a historically accurate time line beyond the very starting second, where it's paused?

It's not about historical accuracy, it's about plausibility. Mecca is not holy to Christians, and so they would never visit a grand Cathedral there.

I guess if you want, Paradox could let you create a grand church there that costs you 10 income per turn in maintenance since no one ever visits it, but something tells me that's not what you're asking for.

You are way overthinking this.

[Tethryss]

引用自 Razorblade：

引用自 EA Latium：

I do agree with what you are saying Razor, but to be fair neither the Hagia Sofia was important to Islam before. I'm of the opinion that it should have some effects of some sort if taken, it's such an important location that would be bound to have at least an impact.

Obviously didn't happen in history so it's harder to imagine something that makes real sense.

Constantinople became the center of the Islamic world for hundreds of years after it was taken, though. It was the world's greatest city west of China; a strategically and economically vital location that any conqueror would make their home, given the chance. You're comparing the City of the World's Desire to some place in the desert that only has significance to one religious group.

引用自 therealjohnconnor：

A large part of the history of the Spanish Reconquesta was about converting mosques into cathedrals - there is still controversy in Cordoba about the status of the ex-mosque there to this day. Realistic if CK3 replicated this across the board, rather than just for particularly well-known historical examples like the Hagia. As to Christian pilgrims not wanting to visit a conquered+converted Mecca to gloat as it's "in the middle of a desert" (no doubt rededicated to 'St George' or somesuch Medieval expedient), they were happy enough to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

History would suggest otherwise. Christians didn't take pilgrimages to Irminsul after Charlemagne's forces conquered it. They didn't take pilgrimages to Bohemia to laugh at the defeated Hussites. They didn't visit Denmark to see the ruins of Viking religious sites.

Sure, these places would be tourist attractions in the modern day, but they never picked up religious significance for Christians, and it's doubtful that Mecca, a city in the middle of the desert, with no inherent value and no religious value, would become a pilgrimage site, especially when literally every other Christian Holy Site is closer to the lands of Christendom.

"Became the center of the Islamic World for Centuries."

Ok and?
It literally was already losing ground by this point and by 1500 Constantinople lost its worth due to colonialism.
It is why, by 1600 Constantinople was already a shadow of its previous wealth and by 1700 it was just like any other city in the east and the fact that it was in the east made it even less valuable as time went on.

The Muslim world ALWAYS considered Jerusalem, Baghdad and Mecca as being FAAAAARR more important than Constantinople and the majority of the muslim world hated the turks and HATED their occupation for the centuries it lasted for.

[Tethryss]

引用自 Razorblade：

引用自 EA Latium：

That's my point, it became something after being conquered (not that it matters, but it wasn't that important anymore at that point, it had a serious decline). I imagine if Crusaders managed to capture the Mecca it wouldn't have been left just sitting there for example, maybe it could have become a place for scholar studies or something. I'm not comparing the actual cities by the way, but only the two places of worship.

The Hagia Sophia was only important to Muslims because Constantinople was important to everyone west of India, though. Like I said, people literally called it the City of the World's Desire, because everyone wanted it's strategic and economic position.
Constantinople has inherent value, and so it's people need a place to worship.

Mecca's only significance, meanwhile, is the fact the Muhammad declared it significant. Without the Hajj, the city probably would have become largely abandoned. Not a single Caliphate made their home in Mecca, even Muhammad's own Caliphate, because the city is just not that valuable when you take away the religious significance. You shouldn't compare Mecca to Constantinople, but rather to Rome, or Canterbury, or Semien. If the devs let us convert the Mecca mosque, they may as well let us do it with any religion's Holy Sites, but that would be OP as hell.

Comparing Mecca to Rome is beyond dumbfounding.

[Tethryss]

引用自 Shadow：

引用自 Das Boot：

If crusaders conquered Mecca then they'd want to do something to the Mecca Mosque to stick their tongues out at the Muslim world. Apart from burning the building to the ground, turning it into a Christian place of worship would accomplish this goal.

Speaking of which, I wish there was a way to turn the Hagia Sophia into a Catholic place of worship. I had a game where I converted to Catholicism as a Byzantine emperor and this giant christian church consequently started gathering dust.

I want to convert BOTH temples to Asatru and stick my tongue out at all of you Abrahamists. Just let us convert the "Main Event" sites to any Reformed Faith.

This too.
Nothing says hip hip hurrah like Romuvan Constantinople.

[EA Latium]

引用自 Peroxide：

It literally was already losing ground by this point and by 1500 Constantinople lost its worth due to colonialism.
It is why, by 1600 Constantinople was already a shadow of its previous wealth and by 1700 it was just like any other city in the east and the fact that it was in the east made it even less valuable as time went on.

Indeed, we estimate it had around only 50 thousand people by the 15th century.

[zacharyb]

Tbh it would be pretty cool if after a certain religion conquered a prominent Landmark, Temple, etc, if they'd be able to destroy it and gain Gold, Fame, Fervor, and Piety for it. Then if that religion owned that area for a decent amount of time and converted it they could convert the ruins/build a new grand temple in it's spot as a way of saying we came, we conquered, and we're here to stay. They could have the Temple be named after the person who conquered it.

[CrUsHeR]

引用自 Peroxide：

Austria itself is dated back to the 13th century and didn't obtain prominence until the early 15th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduchy_of_Austria

The Archduchy of Austria was officially acknowledged exactly in 1453. The decision to replicate this can be done at any time in CK3.

And there are plenty of other historical but anachronistic examples, like being able to found universities in Madrid, Salamanca, Fes etc. at any time you meet the requirements.

Likewise, you could play a vassal of the Seljuk Turks, conquer land in Anatolia, become independent and form an equivalent of the Sultanate of Rum. Then it would just be one more step to have another descendant of the Oghuz Turks conquer Constantinople, found the Ottoman Empire and convert the Hagia Sophia.

Rum and Ottomans are already in the game files, just the decisions/events for them don't seem to exist yet. So this is likely cut content or in preparation of related start dates (DLC?).

No comparable equivalent exists for Mecca, which i believe has been explained thoroughly enough in this thread.



But honestly the rest of your post sounds rather politically motivated, perhaps because the president of Turkey recently re-opened the Hagia Sofia as a Mosque?
And now you want to take revenge in this game by converting Mecca into a Church?

Why not just make a mod, since obviously none of the developers saw your request as reasonable game content. Or perhaps you'll be lucky and this might be doable in a future patch or DLC revolving around religion in general.

Until then, further attempts to desperately argue against any reason and common sense seems rather futile.