"Liege holds de jure duchy" modifier

[someblk]

-25 opinion modifier. I don't understand this one, can anybody explain it?
I've seen it a few times and looking at the current guy who has it, I hold the duchy + 3 counties in the duchy, including the capital. He holds the other 3 counties, has no claims, holds no counties outside of the duchy, and is my direct vassal. I know you already suffer penalties if you are not a rightful liege, and holding the duchy makes me his rightful liege, so I'm not sure why this negative opinion modifier exists or how to remove it. What am I missing?

[kaiyl_kariashi]

Is it a 2ndry duchy title (or your capital is in a different duchy?)? The de jure vassals of those will always desire it and give a -25 penalty.

[someblk]

The capital of the duchy (Dongola) is owned by me; it's the de jure capital of both my primary/kingdom title (Nubia) as well as the de jure capital of the duchy (Makuria).

To break it down more...
My counties: Dongola (capital), Meroe, Sai
Vassal counties: Abwab, Atbara, Wadi el-milk

[CrUsHeR]

Count-rank vassals will always have this modifier towards whoever hold their governing de jure duchy title.

That is also why you should hold 1 full duchy yourself, rather than 2 duchies with only half the counties. Also with partition you cannot keep the second duchy anyways.

The extra duchy buildings can be ignored until Primogeniture, or when you can control the amount of kids and/or have kingdom titles to inherit instead.

[someblk]

Main problem is the duchy (which holds the kingdoms de jure capital) is 6 counties and I consider that too many counties in a single duchy to hold myself when the 'default' holdings size for a character without modifiers is only 4. If that's the rule then the designers need to limit duchy sizes to 4 counties only.

Also it totally defies logic that there would be this opinion modifier penalty, a penalty for not being a de jure liege, a penalty for being over domain limit when only holding counties in 1 duchy, and a penalty for holding counties inside a duchy where you don't hold the duchy title. That literally creates a being screwed no matter what you do situation... Well unless you focus every ruler and heir on stewardship (where your given a a capital in large sized duchy) which is boring, or change your realm capital which removes historical RP flavour.

Yes I'm having a bit of a complaining session now but I think it's justified because the above was not well thought out before being implemented ;)

[someblk]

Just to add to my above complaint, I will at least also offer a suitable and I think quite obvious solution.. Vassals should only get this opinion modifier penalty if they hold enough counties within the duchy to usurp the duchy title (which of course they aren't allowed to do to their liege, so then the opinion modifier would make sense).

[CrUsHeR]

If you have the option wether to hold the duchy or not, these are the criteria

A) hold the duchy, get -25 opinion from local count vassals, but get the full taxes and levies

B) don't hold the duchy, get -5 opinion from vassals, but get something like -60% or -90% taxes and levies

Basically every Count is dreaming of becoming a Duke, while the Dukes just want to get enough land to demand independence and become a King themselves.

The only time when you are truly screwed is when you try to play a Clan realm, because with negative opinion you get literally 0% base tax from vassals.

[someblk]

I still don't think it's rooted in any real logic (yes I do like to use that word) if we apply that on a larger scale. Because if every count dreams of being a duke, then why doesn't every duke dream of being a king, and have a negative opinion modifier toward their king for holding the de jure kingdom? I realise you said they want to acquire enough land to do so, but (especially for those landlocked in the middle of a kingdom) that would most often require taking the land to own the kingdom of which they are already a member.

[CrUsHeR]

Originally posted by someblk:

I still don't think it's rooted in any real logic (yes I do like to use that word) if we apply that on a larger scale. Because if every count dreams of being a duke, then why doesn't every duke dream of being a king, and have a negative opinion modifier toward their king for holding the de jure kingdom?

Hard to say, that's just how the rule set works since CK2.

Holding more than 2 duchy titles gives a strong stacking negative opinion, but you could hold 100 kingdoms and nobody would raise an eyebrow. And neither has any economy penalties as if holding too many counties (exceeding vassal limit gets harsh though).

Perhaps it is so that Duchies are the most powerful title, because they are directly attached to the land inside, and also give unfiltered taxes/levies from the Counts and Barons.

While a Kingdom gives you nominal authority, but has no land attached to it, and thus is worthless unless backed up by being a strong Duke as well. Taxes/levies you get are already mostly filtered by the duke vassals. The most useful boon is probably the increased domain- vassal- and MAA limit from increasing your rank, and the ability to have other dukes as vassals.

[Azunai]

pretty sure only vassals in secondary duchies gave that penalty in CK2. didn't pay attention whether it also applies to the capital duchy now, but i suppose it does, otherwise this thread probably wouldn't exist :)

so the most reasonable solution would probably be to just change it so it works like in CK2. if you only have the capacity to hold 4 out of 6 counties in your capital duchy, you wouldn't get penalized for it.

[Finarfin]

But if the Duke is only good enough to hold four out of six counties might that not be enough for his vassals to look unfavorably upon him as being weak?

[someblk]

Originally posted by Finarfin:

But if the Duke is only good enough to hold four out of six counties might that not be enough for his vassals to look unfavorably upon him as being weak?

I still don't agree with the mechanic but haha I do really like this counter-argument!

EDIT: The opinion modifier is that you hold the de jure duchy (eg, they want it) and not that they "see you as weak", though.

[someblk]

Originally posted by Azunai:

pretty sure only vassals in secondary duchies gave that penalty in CK2

Correct - I've been told that elsewhere by a few people now.