Catharism vs Insular Christianity

[VayneVerso]

Anybody have any thoughts on these? I'm using both in two separate games.

Insular, good for expanding dynasty. Kind of annoying, though, because all of the rulers start taking multiple spouses. More inbreeding, probably, because my vassals seem to all be pretty weird about mating with their family members. I never let me own kids marry into this genetic cesspool. I do like that dynastic kinslaying is a crime. I'm big on managing my dynasty. Pluralism allows you to still have a lot of marriage options, because other faiths don't hate you as much. Being greedy is a sin--not crazy about that. Also, I can't imagine myself ever taking a vow of poverty. When I started playing my current ruler, he had taken it, because he's generous, and I nixed that real fast.

Catharism, obviously amazing for doubling your workforce. Pacifism kind of a problem when you're still expanding and holy wars can help you take a lot of land quickly. Not much else to say. Female equality kind of speaks for itself and gives you so many more options.

[Lovecraft's Cat]

Catharism is just terrible. It lacks Ecumenism, so it's hostile to Catholicism, meaning you always run the risk of getting a Crusade called on you. It also has equal gender law, which is arguably even more terrible, because it makes your dynasty's titles evaporate. In the late game this is not an issue, but by then you can reform your own custom faith anyway.

Insular is interesting because three of the holy sites are in Britannia, so I can definitely see myself using it in a Britannia game (and then reform the faith later).

To be honest, none of the other Christian faiths can compete with Catholicism's free money.

[VayneVerso]

Originally posted by Scyth:

Catharism is just terrible. It lacks Ecumenism, so it's hostile to Catholicism, meaning you always run the risk of getting a Crusade called on you. It also has equal gender law, which is arguably even more terrible, because it makes your dynasty's titles evaporate. In the late game this is not an issue, but by then you can reform your own custom faith anyway.

Hmm... I have to look into how it affects the dynasty titles. Can you explain how it makes them evaporate?

[Kayeka]

Well, that's kind of the dark side of equal rights. Sure, your talent pool got twice as large, which is a pretty sweet deal, but you now need to worry about giving twice as many heirs their due.

If you're big enough to easily take new titles to hand out to your eligible heirs, there's no problem. But if you're still struggling to get yourself a good domain running, it's a big pain in the neck.

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by TheWatcherUatu:

Originally posted by Scyth:

Catharism is just terrible. It lacks Ecumenism, so it's hostile to Catholicism, meaning you always run the risk of getting a Crusade called on you. It also has equal gender law, which is arguably even more terrible, because it makes your dynasty's titles evaporate. In the late game this is not an issue, but by then you can reform your own custom faith anyway.

Hmm... I have to look into how it affects the dynasty titles. Can you explain how it makes them evaporate?

I believe it's due to the AI being terrible at setting up matrilineal marriages. So your daughters will inherit titles, but if left to their own devices will make a regular marriage so their heir will be of the father's dynasty, rather than yours.

[Kayeka]

I think the AI has gotten a bit better at that, actually.

[CrUsHeR]

Gender law:

With an equal faith, you can actually change this to male or female preference as you wish. It just requires crown authority level 3, which is only available to feudal/clan, requires positive opinion of all powerful vassals, has a long cooldown to bring from lvl 1 to 3, and might not be available any time soon depending on the start date and culture.

For instance, in 867 most cultures start with technology of the tribal era (regardless of government), so that is very long mile until unlocking the early medieval era and finally researching Royal Prerogative.



But yeah the biggest problem with Catharism is that it is a heresy, so it doesn't really compare to Insular. No ecumenism makes the pope a massive problem once you get hold of England.

[VayneVerso]

Ah. That all makes perfect sense. Thanks, all. I did take Catharism in one game where my character is a vassal of France. It was pretty helpful during a particularly ugly succession, because it gave me a very deep pool of knights. All of the drawbacks you all mention are worth noting, though.

[Lovecraft's Cat]

Originally posted by TheWatcherUatu:

Originally posted by Scyth:

Catharism is just terrible. It lacks Ecumenism, so it's hostile to Catholicism, meaning you always run the risk of getting a Crusade called on you. It also has equal gender law, which is arguably even more terrible, because it makes your dynasty's titles evaporate. In the late game this is not an issue, but by then you can reform your own custom faith anyway.

Hmm... I have to look into how it affects the dynasty titles. Can you explain how it makes them evaporate?

The problem is, everyone will marry normally, i.e. not matrilieally. So each generation, there's a 50/50 chance the heir of each your titled dynasty members is a girl, which means a 50/50 chance of the main title going to some other dynasty. You can combat this somewhat by arranging matrilineal marriages, but it's a lot of micromanagement and often it only works if you use the house head hook (so it won't work on cadet branches).

So the problem really is succession law. You can have male preference or female preference, both work out fine (as with female preference, matrilineal marriage becomes the new default). So you really need one of those, and for that you need high crown authority, i.e. the Royal Prerogative innovation.

But yes, once you have high crown authority, equal gender law is optimal because it gives you more council options.

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by TheWatcherUatu:

Ah. That all makes perfect sense. Thanks, all. I did take Catharism in one game where my character is a vassal of France. It was pretty helpful during a particularly ugly succession, because it gave me a very deep pool of knights. All of the drawbacks you all mention are worth noting, though.

Being a vassal should eliminate the biggest drawback though. If you're a vassal to a catholic ruler I don't believe the pope can call crusades on you. Of course if you're going that route it would be better to be a vassal to the HRE (so you can be a king yourself) and to make sure your contract allows religious freedom so your liege can't demand things from you and lock you up.

[Lovecraft's Cat]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Originally posted by TheWatcherUatu:

Hmm... I have to look into how it affects the dynasty titles. Can you explain how it makes them evaporate?

I believe it's due to the AI being terrible at setting up matrilineal marriages. So your daughters will inherit titles, but if left to their own devices will make a regular marriage so their heir will be of the father's dynasty, rather than yours.

It's not that the AI is being terrible at setting up matrilineal marriages, it's more that the AI doesn't think that way. They behave realistically.

Think of Queen Victoria (Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Empress of India). She was of House Hanover. One of the most powerful people who ever lived. And yet, her house essentially died with her. Her heir, Edward VII, was born into House Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. House Windsor is a cadet branch of this dynasty.

[VayneVerso]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Being a vassal should eliminate the biggest drawback though. If you're a vassal to a catholic ruler I don't believe the pope can call crusades on you. Of course if you're going that route it would be better to be a vassal to the HRE (so you can be a king yourself) and to make sure your contract allows religious freedom so your liege can't demand things from you and lock you up.

Well, at the rate it's spreading through France, the entire kingdom might get holy warred sooner rather than later.

Interesting info about the HRE. I haven't dealt with them yet in any of my games. Being a king is definitely better than being a duke.

[VayneVerso]

Forgot to mention another benefit of Insular: all of your vassals have multiple wives, so they're producing a ton of heirs that split up their lands upon succession. So that's nice. Tends to prevent anybody beneath you from getting too large. Of course, the same can happen to your ruler if you're not careful.