Why is India so crazy developed?

[someblk]

Just curious really. After completing a game recently, I did my first ever attempt at importing a CK3 save into EU4. Not that I was planning to play it, but just wanted to try it out so I had some idea how it worked for potentially doing it in the future.

However the huge development which came across meant that India (well, the Deccan Empire) was #1 world power while being approximately 4x stronger (according to the world power/development view) than either me (2nd) or the Byzantine Empire (3rd). And we both had a lot more lands than India - I had all of Ireland (where I started) and Britain, France, and then large amounts of Germany and Spain too. The Byzantines had more territory than they would have done at their strongest in history (eg much of Africa, Asia minor, and even large portions of Russia). Yet the crazy high development in India from CK3 made them 4x 'stronger' than either one of us once imported to EU4, which I just don't see as even remotely realistic.

Now I'm not asking for a 'fix' or solution or anything like that... I kinda just want to know WHY India has development at these crazy levels, and I guess also why it doesn't equal itself out over time? Because I honestly can't see a converted save ever not having this problem, given the starting development in India in CK3.

[Azunai]

the normal EU4 map is strongly biased in favor of europe to support the whole europa universalis narrative. by wealth or population india (and also china) would easily have many times more dev than any of the european counties in that whole timeline.

dev in CK3 is less important (more like an afterthought and not the #1 stat that is basically the score of the country like in EU4), so i guess the map can be more realistic about it without breaking the intended gameplay.

guess they'd have to implement an algorithm to screw over everyone outside europe to turn CK3 exports into EU4 maps.

[CrUsHeR]

Paneer > Gyros + Kebab

Well the indian civilizations are like 5000 years old, similar to china and mesopotamia they were still millienia ahead of europe by the year 1066.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation

And similar to most other places in the world, they were subject to the constant rivalry of different interest groups within the region. Keep in mind that "India" as one coherent state was only formed by the British Empire in 1858.

[Iskander]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_by_past_GDP_(PPP)#1%E2%80%932008_(Maddison)

Total GDP (in millions) the year 1.000:
Total Western Europe: 10,925
Former USSR: 2,840
Eastern Europe: 2,600
India: 33,750
Africa: 13,835

Western Europe only surpassed India in terms of GDP, when the industrialization kicked in around the 1800s.

[someblk]

Interesting link. Looking at 1500, although India still 'leads', realistically they should be about 1.3x stronger than me (no way to judge Byzantine Empire due to their mixed holdings) rather than 4x stronger. This makes me feel like there should be some throttling to their development during the course of the game to reflect reality. I realise this is alt-world and will never end out exactly as the real world, but the mechanics also shouldn't make it impossible to match reality.

[Iskander]

For most of human history, GDP per capita was reasonably static, and with little variation across the globe: people were roughly as productive everywhere and productivity increased very slowly over time. Starting in the Renaissance and then especially once industrialization kicked in, did Western Europe become more and more productive, per capita. So in short: pre-14/15th centuries, more people = bigger economy.

[Shad]

India actually makes sense. Tibet, on the on the other hand being an empire on par with Byzantines, is bizzare.

[mortache]

Can't speak for all of India. But Bengal, the place where I live, is appropriately shown to be a LOT of farmlands. Basically my entire country is a giant delta, with hundreds of rivers coming down from Himalayas. This could sustain a huge population, and the rivers also acted as natural highways. In 1500, the population of the capital Gauda was 200,000, the fifth largest in the entire world. And just like someone else mentioned earlier, bigger population = bigger economy.

Unless there is trade involved, of course. This explains how the merchant kings of Southern India were fabulously wealthy. "Silk route" wasn't necessarily a land road, after all. Basically imagine Venice, but on steroids. On one side they have China, on the other side, Persia and the Arab world (and through them, Europe).

Also, notice that rest of the high development counties all are along the Ganges river. But I frankly don't know enough about their history to say anything. I know that Vijayanagara, the 2nd most populated city in the medieval world was burnt to the ground. Gauda also was sacked and faced a plague and it also lies in ruins.

In comparison, Europe was basically backwater in 11th century apart from a few big cities like Paris, Cordoba, Constantinople, etc. It wasn't until the end date of this game, the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, when Europeans started exploring trying to find better route to India, and eventually surpassed India and China and ended up owning us instead. Industrial revolution changed the entire world's face literally overnight.

[Twelvefield]

My vote goes to Industrial Revolution as well. CK3's India, left on its own, has plenty of farmland, a good number of specialty zones like gold and diamond mines, holy sites, and a large population. It's only rivals are the Byzantines and the Mongols. The Byzantines (or maybe if you are lucky the HRE) really only get as far as the western borderlands. There are many inhospitable mountains, deserts, and religions that make European invaders uncomfortable, and it's been that way since before Alexander. But also: Alexander.

The Mongols, on the other hand, could sweep south, but they seem to prefer going west. I don't really know as I messed with the Mongols by having my high Intrigue king assassinate Genghis Khan and several of his kin. They were allergic to spider bites, it turns out.

Given enough Education, a strong Indian-style monarch could load up on technology and keep up with European innovation. Their fortifications were certainly magnificent and could only be breached by the most advanced European sieges, even then that would occur after the Crusader Kings time frame, at least as far as I know.

[Oribeth]

why the mongol never went south i would say Himalaya as in the biggest mountain chain in the whole world and one of the less hospitable place plus horrible for horses which were kind of a thing for mongol
funny M0n gol is censored Oo one of the biggest conqueror in history reduced to slang gg steam

[glythe]

Messaggio originale di someblk:

Just curious really. After completing a game recently, I did my first ever attempt at importing a CK3 save into EU4. Not that I was planning to play it, but just wanted to try it out so I had some idea how it worked for potentially doing it in the future.

How do you import a CK 3 game into EU4?

[CrUsHeR]

Messaggio originale di Oribeth:

why the mongol never went south i would say Himalaya as in the biggest mountain chain in the whole world and one of the less hospitable place plus horrible for horses which were kind of a thing for mongol
funny M0n gol is censored Oo one of the biggest conqueror in history reduced to slang gg steam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty

[someblk]

Messaggio originale di glythe:

Messaggio originale di someblk:

Just curious really. After completing a game recently, I did my first ever attempt at importing a CK3 save into EU4. Not that I was planning to play it, but just wanted to try it out so I had some idea how it worked for potentially doing it in the future.

How do you import a CK 3 game into EU4?

Normally I'd ignore a thread necrod from 2 years ago (I know you didn't do it)... But as I recognise you from the DbD forum too, I will answer this one for you :)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2241203093

[glythe]

I appreciate the reply.

There was an official tool for EU4 but wasnt it only if you bought the game pre launch? Also I think it was for CkII which is more than slightly outdated.

[someblk]

Messaggio originale di glythe:

I appreciate the reply.

There was an official tool for EU4 but wasnt it only if you bought the game pre launch? Also I think it was for CkII which is more than slightly outdated.

I heard there was previously a CK2 one, but I never actually played CK2. But I have used that linked tool myself to convert from CK3 to EU4, and it does work well, although due to how "nations" develop in CK3, it can be a bit messy when imported to EU4. I remember messing with some of the settings can improve that somewhat, but I forget the specifics because it is so long since I used it now.

[mortache]

Messaggio originale di CrUsHeR:

Messaggio originale di Oribeth:

why the mongol never went south i would say Himalaya as in the biggest mountain chain in the whole world and one of the less hospitable place plus horrible for horses which were kind of a thing for mongol
funny M0n gol is censored Oo one of the biggest conqueror in history reduced to slang gg steam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty

TImurids conquered from the west which is deserts. Still relatively defensible but nothing compared to the solid wall that is the Himalayas. Even in the 2nd century BC, Scythians had invaded though that side where Pakistan now lies. Its also the reason why Pakistan has so many muslims compared to rest of Indian Sub-continent (apart from Bangladesh, but that happened for a different reason and waaay later).

Its also commonly believed that the ancient Indo-Europeans also came through that route.