Do armies travel with inflatable dinghies?

[Darzai]

It is becoming a little annoying that you can't corner an army at the coast. They somehow magic a complete fleet out of thin air and just go over sea all the way around the coast of Sweden or Britain to hop back on land with barely losing any numbers or speed.

If you own two counties that are a bit far apart and are both along the coast, war is just chasing floating armies. Who made this up?

[Darzai]

Ficelle eredeti hozzászólása:

From what i could find on the internet, building a longship (viking ship...very simple conception) took weeks to monthes....from people used to do it with the right tools and the wood all available...basically, ideal conditions

Just 1 ship...for la few tens people at best...not armies of thousands

It is not just the tools and wood. You need the cloth for the sails, crazy amounts of rope, time to treat the wood. Building siege weapons is nothing compared to building a fleet.

[mitchincredible]

Darzai eredeti hozzászólása:

mitchincredible eredeti hozzászólása:

Sure, why don't you just take 12 years or whatever to build a boat and chase me.

They knew how do do this ♥♥♥♥ back then. They knew how do do it quickly and decent enough to get across straits and seas. End of story.

I don't want to chase you. Because you will probably drown and I am not stupid enough to jump after you, trying to rescue you.

Your suggestion that an army on the run can build seaworthy ships that fast is utterly ridiculous. Where do they even get the resources for this? And soldiers are not carpenters. Having some shipwrights is not enough (they would stay with the origitnal fleet anyway) I really can't believe anyone would be so stupid to even consider this to be a realistic scenario.

So I think that you are just messing up this thread on purpose. Maybe because you like the silly magic fleet mechanic and don't care if its even remotely realistic or not.

You're literally dismissing my points with nothing but "That sounds stupid."

But seriously, if you're crossing like the English Channel or something like that, you're not going to be hard-pressed to build a seaworthy vessel in a month for like a dozen people using those dozens to build it.

Let's just forget boat building - on top of that you're also going to have pre-existing vessels and loanships (like in the later crusades). These times are idealistic, but not crazy for a simulation.

[Daonar]

"It is becoming a little annoying that you can't corner an army at the coast. "

Welcome to CK3 and its dumbed down army/fleet management system

[Ficelle]

Yep

Anyway, ingame, i would raise the time and cost to embark BIG time
An island should be an island, not the land next door

Amphibious assaults and invading by sea in this era werent a simple thing at all
Heck, they arent even today....

[mitchincredible]

Ficelle eredeti hozzászólása:

Yep

Anyway, ingame, i would raise the time and cost to embark BIG time
An island should be an island, not the land next door

Amphibious assaults and invading by sea in this era werent a simple thing at all
Heck, they arent even today....

By that logic, they should dramatically increase attrition as well, you think that food don't spoil? You think you don't freeze in the mountains?

[Darzai]

mitchincredible eredeti hozzászólása:

Darzai eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't want to chase you. Because you will probably drown and I am not stupid enough to jump after you, trying to rescue you.

Your suggestion that an army on the run can build seaworthy ships that fast is utterly ridiculous. Where do they even get the resources for this? And soldiers are not carpenters. Having some shipwrights is not enough (they would stay with the origitnal fleet anyway) I really can't believe anyone would be so stupid to even consider this to be a realistic scenario.

So I think that you are just messing up this thread on purpose. Maybe because you like the silly magic fleet mechanic and don't care if its even remotely realistic or not.

You're literally dismissing my points with nothing but "That sounds stupid."

But seriously, if you're crossing like the English Channel or something like that, you're not going to be hard-pressed to build a seaworthy vessel in a month for like a dozen people using those dozens to build it.

Let's just forget boat building - on top of that you're also going to have pre-existing vessels and loanships (like in the later crusades). These times are idealistic, but not crazy for a simulation.

It was about an army being chased to some random coast. Where you suggest that they just build a fleet from whatever they find there in record time.

The amount of shipwrights needed. Hint : they didn't build from blueprint, so good luck telling those 1000 1st time carpenters what to do and not mess it up. People not experienced as carpenter can't do much carpentry. The amount of fabric needed for all the sails, the amount of rope, the amount of metal. The treatment of wood, the dry docks needed to build that many ships at once.

Stop filling this thread with your nonsense. When did your fantasy ever happen during that time period?

[Ficelle]

Np with attrition either...im used to it

Still low attrition doesnt look like as stupid as armies walking on seas like it is just plain land

[mitchincredible]

Ficelle eredeti hozzászólása:

Np with attrition either...im used to it

Still low attrition doesnt look like as stupid as armies walking on seas like it is just plain land

It absolutely does. The time it takes to embark puts it on par by your hyper-realism standards in a game focused on rulers.

[Ficelle]

Mind you, ivent seen many people shocked by the low value of attrition
By contrast, there are a lot of people finding the whole ship stuff in this game plain bad
In this forum...and even more on Paradox forums

Not surprised it doesnt bother you, you are the guy thinking you can build ships to transport armies in 1 week or 2...seriously...lol

[Darzai]

mitchincredible eredeti hozzászólása:

Ficelle eredeti hozzászólása:

Np with attrition either...im used to it

Still low attrition doesnt look like as stupid as armies walking on seas like it is just plain land

It absolutely does. The time it takes to embark puts it on par by your hyper-realism standards in a game focused on rulers.

The realism of the magic ships created out of thin air is on par with a virgin birth. But maybe that comes with a DLC, who knows.

[mitchincredible]

Darzai eredeti hozzászólása:

mitchincredible eredeti hozzászólása:

It absolutely does. The time it takes to embark puts it on par by your hyper-realism standards in a game focused on rulers.

The realism of the magic ships created out of thin air is on par with a virgin birth. But maybe that comes with a DLC, who knows.

Mfer look at the fricken passage of time. Attrition is equally 'unrealistic'.

[Darzai]

mitchincredible eredeti hozzászólása:

Darzai eredeti hozzászólása:

The realism of the magic ships created out of thin air is on par with a virgin birth. But maybe that comes with a DLC, who knows.

Mfer look at the fricken passage of time. Attrition is equally 'unrealistic'.

Attrition is just an abstract representation of losses due to lack of supply. Your magic fleet is not an abstract representation of anything. It would require a wizard with a fleet casting spell. Because a random coast you are chased to would simply be a dead stop.

[mitchincredible]

Ficelle eredeti hozzászólása:

Mind you, ivent seen many people shocked by the low value of attrition
By contrast, there are a lot of people finding the whole ship stuff in this game plain bad
In this forum...and even more on Paradox forums

Not surprised it doesnt bother you, you are the guy thinking you can build ships to transport armies in 1 week or 2...seriously...lol

A month in ideal conditions to cross the English Channel. Size is irrelevant. Nerfing that for a game not based on fleet strategy is fine.

IRL with imperfect conditions maybe 2 months to a few at worst.

Now let's talk about how a bunch of guys can carry grain and meat through a desert with no refrigeration and they're not all dead within 6 months because magic people appear out of thin air, walk all the way out ibto the middle of nowhere and somehow meet up with them every month.

[mitchincredible]

Darzai eredeti hozzászólása:

mitchincredible eredeti hozzászólása:

Mfer look at the fricken passage of time. Attrition is equally 'unrealistic'.

Attrition is just an abstract representation of losses due to lack of supply. Your magic fleet is not an abstract representation of anything. It would require a wizard with a fleet casting spell. Because a random coast you are chased to would simply be a dead stop.

It. Literally. Takes. Time. And. Money. As. An. Abstract. Representation.

[Dayve]

mitchincredible eredeti hozzászólása:

Have you built a boat before? A week or two isn't crazy.

Mate, you're talking about the 9th century or the 11th century, depending on when one begins the game. Transporting an army in this time period isn't as simple as 20 men building a shell for them to sail in. Armies in this time period had incredible numbers of horses with them. Horses for the cavalry and the knights, spare horses for the cavalry and the knights (each knight or cavalryman usually went to war with three horses as they tend to break legs and/or get killed in battle), incredible amounts of horses for the baggage trains, not to mention the baggage train itself.

Furthermore, these are not the professional legions of the ancient Roman Empire. They're peasant rabble, semi-professional men-at-arms and knights who would see chopping trees and building boats as beneath their dignity. It took the Normans many months to get their army from Normandy to England and they were building their transport fleet in friendly territory that they controlled. They had to build the boats AND wait for the wind to be blowing in the right direction.

There's a reason that in the two start dates in this game pretty much only the Vikings and the Byzantines could muster large fleets for transport or naval battles. The Vikings could do it because it was obviously ingrained in their culture, they were legendary for their ship building and navigating skills. The Byzantines could do it because they retained the bureaucratic structure of the old Roman Empire, and because within their empire there were many cultures of people who had ship building in their blood since ancient times, like the hundreds of tiny islands where building fishing boats and having experience in sailing is a simple fact of life passed from one generation to the next.

For EVERYBODY in the game to be able to simply and cheaply turn into magic boats for bargain price and quickly move around the world and perform D-Day invasions of beaches is insanely historically inaccurate. Even in the late game it's unrealistic outside of a handful of cultures dotted around the map. The crusaders in the 12th and 13th century bankrupted themselves hiring navies from Venice / Genoa before they'd even set foot in their target destination.