Scamming..I mean asking the Pope for money laughably easy?

[Mentos]

He's too generous. There's no way the Catholic church would hand out 10% of it's treasury to a no name county level vassal in Barcelona. You could ask for money in Ck2 but the pope was alot more particular about who he liked enough to agree to the request.

In CK3... Base reluctance is -40, but the request gains a significant bonus based on the size of the Papal treasury. In my game he has 998, and gains a whopping +48.
Then it adds more for liking you, which is modified by having virtuous traits. That's normal, except it adds a modifier to the decision for the virtuous traits AGAIN. So it's almost as if you get twice the benefit from having a virtuous trait. I'll add that there is no decision negative modifier for having a vice.

It's seems like you'd have to make an effort to purposefully make the pope not want to give you his money.

[Fedtore]

I agree, some functions in this game seems Arcade like and not well worked through

[redned]

I hate it to the point I try not use it unless I end up in debt

[Night]

Historically that was pretty much the function of the church though.
On MANY occasions nations basically remained catholic just because the pope would give them money. After all what does the pope actually *do* for a kingdom aside from limit them?


There are proven instances where the papel states handed out money to literal MAYORS much less counts.

The papel states were free with their money after all they were constantly receiving new funds from kings/emporors requesting forgiveness.

It wasn't the papal states military power that got them in so good with kingdoms...



It almost seems like a scam, but it's pretty historical in how the papal states opperated. The power they held was make believe so they got most of their fielty by giving away literal cash.



Even if you check their funds one month check again at the beginning of the month and you'll see them sitting on a mound of 3,000 gold or more just from rulers asking for forgiveness or crusade treasury winnings.


DEV EDIT (I don't work for paradox, I just looked at the code).
From a pure gameplay perspective this was because CK 2 opperated on a very unpractical basis.

Historically it wasn't about how much the pope liked you if they were going to give you money. The church literally thrived on handing out money to countes/dukes/kings/queens/emperors.

It was about how dedicated to the church you seemed (abstracted as piety in this game).

It made no sense in CK2 for the pope to refuse to give you money that they had because he didn't like you enough (sure if he disliked you.. maybe).

Historically it makes more sense that the church would basically toss money around everywhere. As long as you performed your duties and showed your fealty to the church you would get money ( not peasents though of course).

[redned]

Originally posted by Night:

yeah except you get the option to take money too often and get no penalty.

it needs re-balance, as Alfred the great I can abuse it and get stacks of cash and still have the pope have 100+ opinion of me

[TallestDavid]

they do that now. IRL

[Night]

Originally posted by redned:

Originally posted by Night:

yeah except you get the option to take money too often and get no penalty.

it needs re-balance, as Alfred the great I can abuse it and get stacks of cash and still have the pope have 100+ opinion of me

That wouldn't be historical or necessary.

There wasn't a penalty for asking the pope for money except for his opinion of you.

If you can maintain his opitinion of you and are pious enough to keep requesting money that is not broken, that is historical.


As I mentioned that was literally the only thing the papal states actually provided for kingdoms. They took money from people donating for perceived sins and gave that money to other believers to essentialy buy their power.


Alfred the great will eventually die and you might have a child that has fewer favorable traits.
That child might have extreme difficulty generating enough piety to actually request money.


If you're able to gather stacks of cash then congratulations, you're reaping the very historical rewards of the papal state. Use that money to build an empire but always be beholden to the catholic church and it's rules (meaning you'll always have a appointed bishop, you'll have what laws you can pass predetermined, and your claims on lands will always go through the pope).


If it gets rebalanced i'll be dissapointed. The point of this game is not to see fair. It's to be a simulation/role playing.

Historically the papal states literally got their political clout by handing out money. The HRE didn't form out of no where. They took TONS of cash from the papal states.



If they make some arbitrary reason why getting money from the pope should be harder than it actually was that would be a shame.

[Mentos]

huh..that is new to me. I thought the Pope was hoarding money all this time xD

[galadon3]

You pay it in piety the problem is that they apparently UNLEARNED stuff they learned in CK2, where a lot of that stuff was scaled to income. In CK2 mostly when it was about money but since some ressources seem more convertible here that should be an idea, but apparently they even gave up on that for stuff like feasts (wich doesnt even make much sense, a rich king would be expected to spend a lot more then some poor count).

[redned]

Originally posted by Night:

That wouldn't be historical or necessary.

There wasn't a penalty for asking the pope for money except for his opinion of you.

this ain't irl it's a game and it needs balance.

I don't care for what ever else you put, I can abuse it with any Christian character.
I can out build my realm better then any AI and out last any of them in war because of it.
at least make it so you have to do some pious deeds or upgrade a church or something as a prerequisite. i.e has gone on pilgrimage. or maybe some de-qualifiers like being an adulteress. make me do penance first before I can just take money at will.

[Sneaky_Koala]

We're not allowed to expel the jews after taking a loan anymore (even though historically they've been kicked out over 100 times from various countries) so I guess they decided on a different route ;)

[Night]

Originally posted by redned:

Originally posted by Night:

That wouldn't be historical or necessary.

There wasn't a penalty for asking the pope for money except for his opinion of you.

this ain't irl it's a game and it needs balance.

I don't care for what ever else you put, I can abuse it with any Christian character.
I can out build my realm better then any AI and out last any of them in war because of it.
at least make it so you have to do some pious deeds or upgrade a church or something as a prerequisite. i.e has gone on pilgrimage. or maybe some de-qualifiers like being an adulteress. make me do penance first before I can just take money at will.

well.. I'd say you might be playing the wrong game then.

Exactly what you described is precisely what happened. Catholics DID out build their realm because of money from papal states. The papal states basically performed a lesser service of ecnomically reallocating resources.


That's why catholocism is was so popular and was throughout history. It's because catholocism created powerful kingdoms by reallocating money and making those kingdoms filthy rich.


This game thrives in that it DOESN'T rely on 'game balance' to adjust it's simulation.

If that were the case then there would be imbalances everywhere. History wasn't balanced.

Even if you start in the earliest period of this game depending on who you start as it won't be balanced.


This isn't civilization, it's a historical simulator where you can alter history to do cool things.

[Sabahel-Tep]

Jesus loves you, thats why.

[Messsucher]

Originally posted by Night:

Historically that was pretty much the function of the church though.
On MANY occasions nations basically remained catholic just because the pope would give them money. After all what does the pope actually *do* for a kingdom aside from limit them?


There are proven instances where the papel states handed out money to literal MAYORS much less counts.

The papel states were free with their money after all they were constantly receiving new funds from kings/emporors requesting forgiveness.

It wasn't the papal states military power that got them in so good with kingdoms...



It almost seems like a scam, but it's pretty historical in how the papal states opperated. The power they held was make believe so they got most of their fielty by giving away literal cash.



Even if you check their funds one month check again at the beginning of the month and you'll see them sitting on a mound of 3,000 gold or more just from rulers asking for forgiveness or crusade treasury winnings.


DEV EDIT (I don't work for paradox, I just looked at the code).
From a pure gameplay perspective this was because CK 2 opperated on a very unpractical basis.

Historically it wasn't about how much the pope liked you if they were going to give you money. The church literally thrived on handing out money to countes/dukes/kings/queens/emperors.

It was about how dedicated to the church you seemed (abstracted as piety in this game).

It made no sense in CK2 for the pope to refuse to give you money that they had because he didn't like you enough (sure if he disliked you.. maybe).

Historically it makes more sense that the church would basically toss money around everywhere. As long as you performed your duties and showed your fealty to the church you would get money ( not peasents though of course).

Hilarious is that EU has copied the papacy in practise.

[redned]

Originally posted by Night:

Originally posted by redned:

this ain't irl it's a game and it needs balance.

I don't care for what ever else you put, I can abuse it with any Christian character.
I can out build my realm better then any AI and out last any of them in war because of it.
at least make it so you have to do some pious deeds or upgrade a church or something as a prerequisite. i.e has gone on pilgrimage. or maybe some de-qualifiers like being an adulteress. make me do penance first before I can just take money at will.

well.. I'd say you might be playing the wrong game then.

Exactly what you described is precisely what happened. Catholics DID out build their realm because of money from papal states. The papal states basically performed a lesser service of ecnomically reallocating resources.


That's why catholocism is was so popular and was throughout history. It's because catholocism created powerful kingdoms by reallocating money and making those kingdoms filthy rich.


This game thrives in that it DOESN'T rely on 'game balance' to adjust it's simulation.

If that were the case then there would be imbalances everywhere. History wasn't balanced.

Even if you start in the earliest period of this game depending on who you start as it won't be balanced.


This isn't civilization, it's a historical simulator where you can alter history to do cool things.

I'm talking about out building other catholic realms not non catholic ones. either the AI don't get the option to take the money from the pope or they have no clue how to spend the money.

Originally posted by Night:

Historically it makes more sense that the church would basically toss money around everywhere. As long as you performed your duties and showed your fealty to the church you would get money ( not peasents though of course).

the thing is with this statement you had in a previous comment is that I don't have to perform any duties to the church, which is one of the re-balances I suggested. i.e upgrade church, go on pilgrimage, do something charitable or do penance. for instance let's say you've sinned in the last year and try to get money the pope will ask you do penance first before he hands you a sum of cash.

[Walrus Clan (Wally)]

How are you having so much piety to get this to the point of being "abusive?"