Negative Review Draft - Please change my mind!

[constantinople]

Hello folks.

Ive been thinking about the game a bunch and have drafted a review, which I had to make a "not recommended". But that sucks and annoys me because I had hoped for much more after I researched the game before buying and people were so gushing. So please, tell me if Im overlooking something crucial here that makes the struggle worth it.

And, please, give at least some consideration to where Im coming from as a buyer and consumer. If the fact that a game takes more than 12 hours to get going is just not a factor to you then our perspectives are so fundamentally different that I ask to refrain from calling me a filthy casual for not willing to invest 30, 50 or a hundred hours before acquiring the right to make a judgement in your eyes. My review is made from a specific, individual perspective that does not necessarily apply to others and I make that very clear.



Depth for Depth's Sake Only


Let me preface with an author's byline: I have a lot of experience with many 4X games, but little to no experience with hex-wargaming. I have, however, long been looking for a title to act as a gateway for me to get into the latter, because I am super interested in the basic premise of complex, deep combat that only those games seem to offer.

Since Shadow Empire (SE) does have fairly complex hex-warfare and additionally the promise of emergent gameplay (instead of the setpiece scenarios of many other wargames, which I dont like because, to me, they resemble puzzle-games too much, in which the solution to the problem is at least to a degree preconceived) it sounded like the perfect candidate. It was additionally heralded as an "instant classic", a "game that only happens once in a generation" and further impressive slogans.

I am 12 hours deep into this game now, not counting many more hours spent reading the manual, watching tutorials and looking for answers online. Many will say that is not enough time to do anything but scratch the surface of this game's depth - and I think they are correct.

But, as many others, and coming from the perspective of someone looking for an entry into hex-wargaming, I have to make the crucial point determining why I do "not recommend" SE: I do not have the time for games that take upwards of 12 hours to present me with anything at all that motivates me to keep wrestling the steep learning curve.
I need SOME carrot dangling in front of my face while I cluelessly search for answers in ugly screens filled with tiny, barely legible rows and rows of numbers I can barely, if at all, interpret - and sadly this game does not offer any. It is very ugly, very clunky and incredibly unwelcoming and obscure and after ten or so hours I began to wonder: What is there to make me think "Ill just deal with it so I can get to the good part"? Instead, I couldnt see any "good part" to look forward to. There is no interesting goal past dominating the map, which is filled with other powers, locations and terrain with no character whatsoever. There is no real exploration or discovery, because assets to find are never more exciting than "gain 10 Metal" or some other boring effect.
The logistics system, which many praise as a core element of the game and also its complexity incorporates my problem with SE perfectly: It is indeed complex - and I completely fail to see how it presents me with anything but painstaking busywork. Complex systems are fine if they drive components of a game that are exciting. Detailed administration, to me, is fun if there is something to generate some sense of payoff. But SE just drags on, making you engage with its complexity for... no reason but to engage with its complexity.

That might be fun for some folks, that is perfectly legitimate. But I, for one, needed SOMETHING to keep me going against the learning curve, against the terrible aesthetics, against the unbelievable clunkiness, against the impenetrability of one obscure system layered onto the next, even obscurer, system. I would have needed something to compensate, some charm, maybe, be it in the visuals, the writing, some world building, some more fluent, pleasant "game-feel", anything at all.
But, as it stands, my time with the game was just frustrating and, ultimately and much worse, very boring.

Im aware it is the product of a single developer, making having to give a negative recommendation somewhat tragic, but: As a willing beginner, looking for exactly what this game seemed to promise before I bought it, I can only advise others in a similar position: Do not buy.

[Alpharius]

Yeah, the real question here is, is this game for you or not. And it is one of them games that will take you many hours to get used to and a many more to understand the full workings of.

I think the charm of the game isn't in dominating the map, even though that is the goal. It's the interaction you have with your staff and other elements. The randomness, the world generation etc. Definitely has a roleplaying aspect so very much of it depends on how deeply you can immerse yourself into it's lore.

We're playing a niche game that's within a niche genre, so I totally get how this 4X is totally different to others. I've played less than 50 hours overall (via the Matrix Launcher / Steam) so I'm still a total noob.

I know I haven't helped one bit with my reply lol.

[constantinople]

Originally posted by Dawnrazor:

Unlike Paradox garbage this game is actually fun. Don't see a need to change your mind since it seems this game isn't for you.

Entirely unproductive comment that misses the point completely. Par for the course.

[constantinople]

Originally posted by Warsmith:

Yeah, the real question here is, is this game for you or not. And it is one of them games that will take you many hours to get used to and a many more to understand the full workings of.

I think the charm of the game isn't in dominating the map, even though that is the goal. It's the interaction you have with your staff and other elements. The randomness, the world generation etc. Definitely has a roleplaying aspect so very much of it depends on how deeply you can immerse yourself into it's lore.

We're playing a niche game that's within a niche genre, so I totally get how this 4X is totally different to others. I've played less than 50 hours overall (via the Matrix Launcher / Steam) so I'm still a total noob.

I know I haven't helped one bit with my reply lol.

I agree on the roleplaying and immersion, and I expected to go in like this. Thats why I found the lack of charm so disappointing, the factions, parties characters so frustratingly boring. With everyone looking like 90's robots, having random, jumbled names without coherence or theming, parties being generic stuff like "Warrior Knights" etc... Again, Im not saying this has to be in there for anyone to enjoy the game. But with respect to what you said, that is what took me out of immersing myself...

[Leon]

I only have 30 hours in so far, so I'm still learning, but I think you basically identify two problems - one imo fair, and one purely a matter of taste.

First is the interface. The game is built like an excel spreadsheet, there's no denying it; the presentation can leave a lot to be desired, but while imo work needs to be done w/r/t making information accessible ingame instead of having to constantly refer to the manual, a lot of the clunkiness of the nested menus and lots of numbers is there because it is necessary information.

Which brings us to your second issue - complexity for complexity's sake. Here I think we encounter the matter of personal taste. I don't like a lot of the systems in Paradox games, for example, (monarch points, shudder) because even if they are solid gameplay mechanics and flow well, they are often too abstracted from the real-world thing they are supposed to be representing, and it kills my immersion.

In Shadow Empire, nothing is abstracted (by videogame standards anyway) unless it absolutely needs to be. Logistics is complex because shipping stuff a long way over mountains is hard and comes with lots of issues. Administration is complex and borderline opaque because organising and running a government really is like that: are things going well? It's hard to tell unless you look at the numbers, or unless something important has suddenly gone spectacularly wrong and it turns out you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up some important aspect of running your empire a while back and haven't been reading your reports. That happens all the time irl :)

Really that's the core beauty of this game: things aren't placed there purely for player enjoyment, systems are in place because this is the closest the author could come to a simulation without it being unplayably complex. That's the appeal, really. That's why people gush and why I'm growing to love it - I think it strikes a balance between the impossible sims like Aurora4x or Dwarf Fortress and the more user-friendly but emptier games of Paradox (or other Slitherine titles).

But if you're a "gameplay first, realism second" kinda guy - no shame in that btw - I'm not sure that this game has much to offer you. If those are your sensibilities then many of the design decisions made in Shadow Empire will seem baffling, if not outright player-hostile.

[constantinople]

Originally posted by Leon:

I only have 30 hours in so far, so I'm still learning, but I think you basically identify two problems - one imo fair, and one purely a matter of taste.

First is the interface. The game is built like an excel spreadsheet, there's no denying it; the presentation can leave a lot to be desired, but while imo work needs to be done w/r/t making information accessible ingame instead of having to constantly refer to the manual, a lot of the clunkiness of the nested menus and lots of numbers is there because it is necessary information.

Which brings us to your second issue - complexity for complexity's sake. Here I think we encounter the matter of personal taste. I don't like a lot of the systems in Paradox games, for example, (monarch points, shudder) because even if they are solid gameplay mechanics and flow well, they are often too abstracted from the real-world thing they are supposed to be representing, and it kills my immersion.

In Shadow Empire, nothing is abstracted (by videogame standards anyway) unless it absolutely needs to be. Logistics is complex because shipping stuff a long way over mountains is hard and comes with lots of issues. Administration is complex and borderline opaque because organising and running a government really is like that: are things going well? It's hard to tell unless you look at the numbers, or unless something important has suddenly gone spectacularly wrong and it turns out you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up some important aspect of running your empire a while back and haven't been reading your reports. That happens all the time irl :)

Really that's the core beauty of this game: things aren't placed there purely for player enjoyment, systems are in place because this is the closest the author could come to a simulation without it being unplayably complex. That's the appeal, really. That's why people gush and why I'm growing to love it - I think it strikes a balance between the impossible sims like Aurora4x or Dwarf Fortress and the more user-friendly but emptier games of Paradox (or other Slitherine titles).

But if you're a "gameplay first, realism second" kinda guy - no shame in that btw - I'm not sure that this game has much to offer you. If those are your sensibilities then many of the design decisions made in Shadow Empire will seem baffling, if not outright player-hostile.

Yeah, you make some real good points, really insightful!

And I think your last paragraph brings it to a head - I am, in fact, I think the overwhelming majority of gamers is "gameplay first / realism second", since gaming is primarily for entertainment and escapism. often from jobs that include exactly the types of spreadsheets you talked about.
So it kinda comes down to what another person above said about this being a niche title and possibly a communication issue of just HOW niche, if it really is a simulation of administration and organization tasks most people seek rather to escape from than invite into their free time. I for example was not under the impression that thats the core appeal of the game, I was probably expecting a different balance of gameplay and realism and possibly tedium with power fantasy... Mh.
Anyway, thanks for an interesting reply that attempts conversation instead of being right :D

[constantinople]

Originally posted by TROXTER:

The best way to learn this game is to start a game. Play normaly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ up real hard. Start again and again. Just play fast and go look everywhere you can clic. Just clic everywhere on every pannel.

Do that for like 10 games real fast. You just start moving your units and do some stuff all around to learn the way this game goes. Do not try to finish a game (win or lose). Restart and repeat.

And after a certain moment, you will know more deeply what you are doing and the game mechanic will be learned.

I have play a game that fans really hated called (Master of Orion 3). Dude this game was like micro, micro, micro, micro. And even today i know how to play the game almost perfectly. I still have to micro like ♥♥♥♥. But i know what i am doing.

This game is smaller in micro compared to Moo3. But it make me feel almost the same way. You will feel the reward after you learn the game mechanic.

Just give it more time. It is a nice game.

As for MP game. Well it looks like it need to be rework. I would like to have a game like all other PBEM game. Where you received a e-mail telling you that it is your turn to play.

My original post was intended to somewhat address the "give it more time" argument. Because in a world where I could buy -whatever- right away, say, Cyberpunk or whatever is on the front page tomorrow, the threshold for how much time a game can ask of me before it becomes enjoyable kinda shifts, whether we want that or like that or no.
Im not saying that simplicity or accessibility are desirable in themselves, but since we all have limited time on our hands, this particular game doesnt seem to strike a good balance between inaccessibility and eventual payoff... But then again, yeah I suppose thats just true for this subgenre and therefore it is niche, and not for me. That point is taken.

[Saros]

I think you're approaching it wrong if you're looking for an intro to hex-style wargames with Shadow empire. It's just not a simple game even by wargame standards (check out unity of command or the Order of Battle series for a lighter into to the genre). I would say its wargame side is about middling complexity for the genre (compared to say War in the Pacific). The appeal of Shadow Empire is the blending of the two Genres in a way thats never really been done before.

[Leon]

Well, I think it's quite likely that it may sadly not be exactly to your taste - but you never know, tastes change, maybe you'll find something you like :)

But let me give two examples of this design philosophy that I described in action. One is managing admin. In a standard 4x game, you hit a tab - "research" or "government" or whatever - and click some buttons, push some sliders, it takes a few seconds. In Shadow Empire your admin branches are all managed by characters, with their own stats and personalities, and to get to this screen you have to call them (which costs a small amount of political power) and if you do things like cut their budget they'll get mad at you.

Superficially this is an inferior solution to the standard 4x method - what was a simple mouse click on a tab is now at least three clicks and two separate windows, one of which costs in-game currency to even open - but here it serves the purpose of simulating the "herding cats" aspect of running a government. You DO have to (just like real life) appoint competent ministers who like you and trust you and micromanaging them comes at a cost; you can't do everything yourself so quality characters are at a premium. So it actually uses mechanics to build this immersive role-playing relationship with your empire, even though it *seems* ten times more tedious than the standard "click tab, open menu" approach of say Stellaris or HoI4.

Second example is logistics - if games bother to model logistics it's usually "can this unit trace a line to HQ y/n" but here there's all sorts of complications that you need to think about - how far will my logistics reach (you need to build depots to extend it), over what terrain (different costs for e.g. roads), what's the benefit of rail vs. highways, and how far can I push this offensive into new territory before going "offroad"? Preparing for a war isn't just about military buildup but also about scouting terrain, the enemy logistics network, planning your supply chain, planning potential cut-off points... again, complex, but this is the sort of stuff that ended the Wehrmacht. Pull it off successfully and you get the joy of a plan well executed.

lol long post. I really like this game ;) But you do have to approach it patiently and expect to learn and study rather than be entertained the whole time. I hope you enjoy it in the end but if not - lots of good games out there!

[constantinople]

Originally posted by Saros:

I think you're approaching it wrong if you're looking for an intro to hex-style wargames with Shadow empire. It's just not a simple game even by wargame standards (check out unity of command or the Order of Battle series for a lighter into to the genre). I would say its wargame side is about middling complexity for the genre (compared to say War in the Pacific). The appeal of Shadow Empire is the blending of the two Genres in a way thats never really been done before.

Fair enough, yeah. But then again that blend is what really appealed to me, where, say UoC I disliked because of the fixed scenarios...

[constantinople]

Originally posted by Leon:

Well, I think it's quite likely that it may sadly not be exactly to your taste - but you never know, tastes change, maybe you'll find something you like :)

But let me give two examples of this design philosophy that I described in action. One is managing admin. In a standard 4x game, you hit a tab - "research" or "government" or whatever - and click some buttons, push some sliders, it takes a few seconds. In Shadow Empire your admin branches are all managed by characters, with their own stats and personalities, and to get to this screen you have to call them (which costs a small amount of political power) and if you do things like cut their budget they'll get mad at you.

Superficially this is an inferior solution to the standard 4x method - what was a simple mouse click on a tab is now at least three clicks and two separate windows, one of which costs in-game currency to even open - but here it serves the purpose of simulating the "herding cats" aspect of running a government. You DO have to (just like real life) appoint competent ministers who like you and trust you and micromanaging them comes at a cost; you can't do everything yourself so quality characters are at a premium. So it actually uses mechanics to build this immersive role-playing relationship with your empire, even though it *seems* ten times more tedious than the standard "click tab, open menu" approach of say Stellaris or HoI4.

Second example is logistics - if games bother to model logistics it's usually "can this unit trace a line to HQ y/n" but here there's all sorts of complications that you need to think about - how far will my logistics reach (you need to build depots to extend it), over what terrain (different costs for e.g. roads), what's the benefit of rail vs. highways, and how far can I push this offensive into new territory before going "offroad"? Preparing for a war isn't just about military buildup but also about scouting terrain, the enemy logistics network, planning your supply chain, planning potential cut-off points... again, complex, but this is the sort of stuff that ended the Wehrmacht. Pull it off successfully and you get the joy of a plan well executed.

lol long post. I really like this game ;) But you do have to approach it patiently and expect to learn and study rather than be entertained the whole time. I hope you enjoy it in the end but if not - lots of good games out there!

Yeah, you make a good case. I suppose Im just annoyed the game isnt offering me SOME more "entertainment" during the "studying". Some aesthetics, for instance, like seeing your empire become more and more sprawling, or some visually interesting native species to discover, or some interesting factions to encounter... Something of that nature to break up the spreadsheets.

[Leon]

You do get a bit of sprawl! Cities look bigger as they go up in levels (I think) and you get little hex assets developing, it's kinda cool, and the tiny unit counters change as you give them more equipment. But it's not exactly a gorgeous game, that's for sure. You do have to use your imagination quite a bit lol.

[constantinople]

Originally posted by Leon:

You do get a bit of sprawl! Cities look bigger as they go up in levels (I think) and you get little hex assets developing, it's kinda cool, and the tiny unit counters change as you give them more equipment. But it's not exactly a gorgeous game, that's for sure. You do have to use your imagination quite a bit lol.

I was like ♥♥♥♥ yeah when I saw farms change the floor texture at least :D

[maerchen]

I do not believe we can change your mind.

Only you can, but that needs you to want to delve deeper into the game, understand its mechanics a bit more.

The UI isn't great, but it works for me. When I think about its art, it is minimalistic, and I didn't buy this game on matrixgames release day for its artwork. I bought it because it has the depth of logistics that I know would satisfy and drive me crazy at the same time. The logistics hell this game is IS the fun part!

I bought it because it has an immense potential of replayability. One game against 2 majors and a single minor on a tiny backwater moon, one game against 11 majors and 81 minor factions on a once overpopulated megacity world. So many environments.

So many playstyles I have to discover and master. And I have to master them because the whole game is challenging me turn per turn. Just one more turn, overcome that supply bottleneck. Just one more turn, destroy that nasty slavers. Just one more turn, snag that minor regime's city fom under the hands of the major who is attacking it, too.


If you have questions on how to play this game to get satisfying results you need to delve deep. This game isn't easy or self-explanatory or shallow. This game needs you to think. To adapt. To read the guides. To stop for a turn, re-read that forum post that mentioned your problem.



For me, this is the best strategic game of the 21st century so far.

[maerchen]

Thank you for making me rethink about this game! I updated my review about this game.

[thewacokid]

Regarding OPs review, I think I do not understand what rewards you seek in gameplay. What is exciting to you? What is rewarding? I find it highly rewarding to build a military from ragtag militia to jetpack commandos and Walkers. I also see the progression when I cannot kill the local fauna on a militia planet with anything less than a brigade at the outset, and then later can overrun their territory with a few recon squads armed with lasers. And the variety of challenges I can create by switching planets is really interesting to me.

If you could further identify what type of feedback is missing for you, I think you would help a lot of people decide whether to grab this game. Or you could maybe identify *how* you intend to enjoy games you play. Maybe list a few similar games that you like and do a quick comparison?