True Founder dungeons are a massive spike in "difficulty"

[Baelfyr]

Why did the game go from well paced combat to a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥? Damage that drops on you the moment you enter a room, tanky armored enemies coupled with there being like 6 per room, this level of visual clutter and overcrowding is a big downgrade to the main dungeons, the game goes from "a little easy but enjoyable because unique combat" to "oh now I can see where the issues in the combat lie, this isn't well balanced when you have to face an entire room of tanks with armour with a coffee pot right above the door that'll hit you."

The new enemy types and revisions of old enemies are really cool but having to deal with them alongside tanked out normal enemies isn't great, difficulty seems to be geared around new moves and new enemies but with added health armour and general numbers per room etc on top, should have really went with one or the other as both at once has been a vast leap from the main games pace, not every rogue-ish title has to be a min max nightmare, this one was certainly funner when it wasn't still overall very worth playing but some adjustments to the late end to bring it more in line with the rest of the game (or failing that a difficulty upgrade to the main game to prepare players for the spike) would honestly make this feel like a more complete title.

[DjinnFor]

Normal is about dodge rolling, being patient and avoiding damage. True Founder dungeons are about understanding the mechanics and using them to breaking the game.

Upcycle with level 3 or better Kara as a mentor and Power Cycle as the pinned app is an obvious example. Many apps with level 3 Kara are super powerful (and of course level 2 Kara lets you buy a ton of them for cheap) and Upcycle is by far the most broken: it instantly fully repairs your weapon, gives it a random modifier like damage or crit rate up, and permanently adds a stacking increase to its size. Not only can you make powerful weapons last throughout an entire dungeon, 3 uses of Upcycle is enough to turn a standard-sized weapon as large as mid-sized room, and with Level 2 Kara you can easily and reliably find 2-3 of them per run. I've had multiple runs where my weapons were so large they literally filled up the entire screen.

If you can clear the first floor of a dungeon without dying you can abuse the Kara-upgraded versions of Upcycle, CoopSnoop, Cancellr, SelfCare, JoblinSquad, CublicleReverb, and Jitter to carry you through the remaining levels with little effort.

Also the more you pick a skill up in a dungeon the more the game likes giving it to you, so if you know what you're doing and be very choosey with the skills you grab, you can pretty reliably get the game to keep dropping you the best skills in every run.

[Leviathan]

Humm... really? I mean I do think that just fighting and dodging doesn't help a lot in True founder unless you do it very well but... from the little time I've been in the game I've learned you can make very broken and weird combinations. I remember it took me 10 attempts to beat styxcoin first time but hard joblin didn't take that many attempts. In particular I've frequently found the skill which makes maces go through armor, which helps a lot with that many armored enemies.

Originally posted by DjinnFor:

Also the more you pick a skill up in a dungeon the more the game likes giving it to you, so if you know what you're doing and be very choosey with the skills you grab, you can pretty reliably get the game to keep dropping you the best skills in every run.

Besides all you said which makes me wanna test... is that so? Because it's nice that a roguelite doesn't punish you for unlocking stuff.

[Susurrus]

If you actually use your Mentors and Skills and weapons well, it's not really any more difficult than when you started the base dungeons with no experience and no upgrades.
You can always turn it back down to normal if you want to practice and experiment and upgrade.

[Luna Wildpawe]

Yeah I just got to True Founders and it's kinda killed the game for me. Up to then the challenge felt more or less balanced for a rogue-like game where RNG is the foundation. Now just getting to the Joblin boss is a frustrating battle of attrition that I inevitably lose. The enemies are simply much tougher, more numerous, and hit harder while you get junk weapons and few health items.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best gamer or really into rogue-likes in general but this feels really cheap and soured what had been an otherwise enjoyable game. There are probably ways to deal with it, like those mentioned above, but that sounds like a workaround for poor game balance.

[Baelfyr]

Originally posted by Luna Wildpawe:

Yeah I just got to True Founders and it's kinda killed the game for me. Up to then the challenge felt more or less balanced for a rogue-like game where RNG is the foundation. Now just getting to the Joblin boss is a frustrating battle of attrition that I inevitably lose. The enemies are simply much tougher, more numerous, and hit harder while you get junk weapons and few health items.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the best gamer or really into rogue-likes in general but this feels really cheap and soured what had been an otherwise enjoyable game. There are probably ways to deal with it, like those mentioned above, but that sounds like a workaround for poor game balance.

Your assessment is pretty much how I took these replies I've played more mechanically demanding games of this nature and games that required more thought/setup but never really experienced one like this where the core design seems to be forgotten as the difficulty increases, unfortunate the main game was very enjoyable! :(

[LT2483]

Huh, I read this before reaching the True Founder dungeons, and got worried. Then beat all 3 first try...

Maybe practice on the normal dungeons first? I got all mentors to max level before "going under", so potentially it's just becoming more skilled at the game. Could of also been having a level 4 mentor, but they don't add all that much.

There is also assist mode - I'm not quite sure what it does (I haven't used it), but I do know that it makes the game easier. So if you want to see the game through, then that's an option.

Also, if anyone cares what I was using, it was level 4 Swomp with Large & In Charge. No special strategies, just played normally.

[Luna Wildpawe]

Originally posted by LT2483:

Huh, I read this before reaching the True Founder dungeons, and got worried. Then beat all 3 first try...

Maybe practice on the normal dungeons first? I got all mentors to max level before "going under", so potentially it's just becoming more skilled at the game. Could of also been having a level 4 mentor, but they don't add all that much.

There is also assist mode - I'm not quite sure what it does (I haven't used it), but I do know that it makes the game easier. So if you want to see the game through, then that's an option.

Also, if anyone cares what I was using, it was level 4 Swomp with Large & In Charge. No special strategies, just played normally.

I'll give that a try at least. My issue isn't (imo) one of skill, it's if/when you get locked into a tight space with multiple damage sponges and attacks are coming from all over you're inevitably gonna take hits. Not helped by the fact you can get hit by stuff off camera because of the way it's zoomed/angled.

I did manage to get to the Joblin boss a couple times using Kara (but not power user since I don't have it pin-able...cuz RNG) and the boss itself was fine. He was only hard because I was in rough shape just getting there. Got him down to around 1/4 my second attempt and with more starting health/better weapons I probly could have done it.

[Baelfyr]

Originally posted by Luna Wildpawe:

Originally posted by LT2483:

Huh, I read this before reaching the True Founder dungeons, and got worried. Then beat all 3 first try...

Maybe practice on the normal dungeons first? I got all mentors to max level before "going under", so potentially it's just becoming more skilled at the game. Could of also been having a level 4 mentor, but they don't add all that much.

There is also assist mode - I'm not quite sure what it does (I haven't used it), but I do know that it makes the game easier. So if you want to see the game through, then that's an option.

Also, if anyone cares what I was using, it was level 4 Swomp with Large & In Charge. No special strategies, just played normally.

I'll give that a try at least. My issue isn't (imo) one of skill, it's if/when you get locked into a tight space with multiple damage sponges and attacks are coming from all over you're inevitably gonna take hits. Not helped by the fact you can get hit by stuff off camera because of the way it's zoomed/angled.

I did manage to get to the Joblin boss a couple times using Kara (but not power user since I don't have it pin-able...cuz RNG) and the boss itself was fine. He was only hard because I was in rough shape just getting there. Got him down to around 1/4 my second attempt and with more starting health/better weapons I probly could have done it.

Is the boss pattern exactly the same on True Founder? I really don't see the point in refighting the same 3 bosses if the challenge of the fights themselves is only increased by making the dungeons before hand more of a slog :s

[LT2483]

Baelfyr: The boss patterns are changed - they still have some of the same attacks, some upgraded, along with new patterns. The bosses are still probably the easiest part of each run, but they serve as an actual challenge in True Founder.

Luna: Some advice if you are having trouble with getting pushed into corners and beat up. 1, always be moving - it stops enemies bunching up around you, because they are chasing you instead. 2, roll - the i-frames are super generous on the roll, even if the animation doesn't reflect that. Sometimes all you need to get out of a corner is to just repeatedly blindly roll. 3, always have a "clearance" weapon. Either a fast-ish weapon that swings in an arc, or a spear that causes you to jump forwards on a charge attack. These let you push your way out of bunches of enemies. Won't stop you taking the damage, but will stop you from taking more than needed.

[Luna Wildpawe]

Originally posted by LT2483:

Baelfyr: The boss patterns are changed - they still have some of the same attacks, some upgraded, along with new patterns. The bosses are still probably the easiest part of each run, but they serve as an actual challenge in True Founder.

Luna: Some advice if you are having trouble with getting pushed into corners and beat up. 1, always be moving - it stops enemies bunching up around you, because they are chasing you instead. 2, roll - the i-frames are super generous on the roll, even if the animation doesn't reflect that. Sometimes all you need to get out of a corner is to just repeatedly blindly roll. 3, always have a "clearance" weapon. Either a fast-ish weapon that swings in an arc, or a spear that causes you to jump forwards on a charge attack. These let you push your way out of bunches of enemies. Won't stop you taking the damage, but will stop you from taking more than needed.

Okay so I just finished the game, having mobs of your own to draw aggro and over-sized weapons for added range really helped. As I said before the challenge comes from just being swarmed by mobs and losing yourself amid the chaos. The bosses themselves aren't that difficult, it's the adds getting in cheap shots.

@Baelfyr The bosses are like the dungeons, mostly the same but with a slight twist. For example the Joblin boss is a lot faster, dashes more times, has bigger aoe, and has a new chest "beam" attack.

[LT2483]

Glad to hear you got through it - maybe my loadout really did have a big impact. Anyway, glad it helped you.

[Baelfyr]

Hearing that the bosses change at the very least has made me interested in trying out the dungeons again at some point didn't want it to just be repeat content with no variation so that's good to know!

[Luna Wildpawe]

Originally posted by LT2483:

Glad to hear you got through it - maybe my loadout really did have a big impact. Anyway, glad it helped you.

Thanks, it really helped me get over that hurdle and was (mostly) smooth sailing after that.