Red Meadow Circle Mage Difficulty?

[northw1nd]

has anyone completed the game on Circle Mage difficulty? I have been able to do that except for one mission - The Red Meadow and didn't get the achievement :(. I had to lower the difficulty cuz I swear its literally impossible to hold that shrine on Circle Mage. The swarm of enemies is too big and too soon. Curious if anyone managed to do it, and if so, what was your heros' build?

In this run I went:

Akrog - Bloom
Grung - Ele
Zazka - Bloom

It worked out pretty well otherwise, up to a point that I was almost able to solo the last few missions with the hero party only (though it takes a lot of hit and run, kiting, warcraft 3 level micro, ability spam and what not)

[VaPe]

i did

[northw1nd]

Hey guys, thanks for the comments. I've started another playthrough and I'm at Red Meadow right now. I have cleared the map, and I'm about to initiate the quest!

I'm pretty low level, barely level 10, I went with Ele Akrog, Blood Grung, Nature Zazka (its kinda useless TBH, I just did it to make use of his legendary armor later on for the +2 cons to be justified so I can finally get a group with all 4 armor pieces that will do at least something for me), and Noag is tank of course.

I will update how it goes for all who are interested!

[5262]

Początkowo opublikowane przez northw1nd:

Hey guys, thanks for the comments. I've started another playthrough and I'm at Red Meadow right now. I have cleared the map, and I'm about to initiate the quest!

I'm pretty low level, barely level 10, I went with Ele Akrog, Blood Grung, Nature Zazka (its kinda useless TBH, I just did it to make use of his legendary armor later on for the +2 cons to be justified so I can finally get a group with all 4 armor pieces that will do at least something for me), and Noag is tank of course.

I will update how it goes for all who are interested!

The struggle is real with advocating for artefact armor indeed. By Mugwa, Fallen God is fantastic; but it's lack of unique gear certainly isn't. Have fun, enjoy your stay (are you going to postpone waves or opt for a quick finish?)!

[Gorwe]

Początkowo opublikowane przez 5262:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

Probably should've picked 3x Nature and stacked AoE DoTs while you're stacking AoE DoTs! Nature shines in this mission in particular.

Nature barely has stackable AOE DoT's. Bleeding doesn't stack, Ignited doesn't stack, Poisoned doesn't stack, Lightning has no DoT (and unit hit cap), Tar Pits is purely CC (and underwhelming at that) with no damage. Basically the only stackable DoT's from Nature are Ground Splitter and a 15% proc chance per 2 seconds Rock Storm, the former is a solid (yet high cooldown) form of DPS in a narrow and long line whereas the latter is pitiful regarding damage because of it's inherent proc chance and CON scaling.

Overlapping AOE's isn't unique to Nature, which is what one does versus a cluster of enemies, and doesn't particularly stand out in Red Meadow over other AOE/specialisations. Stacking 3 Nature is incredibly unsynergetic and one of the worse combinations a player can opt for when chasing AOE potential in a group setup.

Assuming you still like your 'Normal' difficulty and your current playthrough is with a LV50 mod installed yielding over double the amount of ability/attribute/level points than vanilla progression, it would be surprising to not have some decent AOE results. Doesn't equal it being a top tier choice, or fitting advice at that for a non modded CM difficulty thread.

Well, I meant stackable with itself. It's one of the most powerful single character AoE trees(maybe even the most powerful). Tar Pit does have AoE dmg, yes it's super unintuitive but it comes from its modifier which adds quite a lot of Siege damage and multiple Tar Pits stack lol(think of Venn diagrams). Then you have Split which has a lot of damage even without investing into INT and then there's Rock Spike. And not only do they offer beautiful AoE, but also quite some Single Target. All the DoTs converge and I'm pretty certain that Spikes hit multiple times if you're too close to epicenter. Even the Synergy isn't half bad especially now that Revenge got nerfed.

And I still find Physical(Crush, Hurl) to be super underwhelming.

[5262]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

It's one of the most powerful single character AoE trees(maybe even the most powerful).

Bold and deficient statement (among others) without it holding much truth, lacking practical testing, relative objective comparisons, simple nuance and that sort of basic stuff. On that note, single character build theory shenanigans is poor practice when a party build is what's practical.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

Well, I meant stackable with itself. Tar Pit does have AoE dmg, yes it's super unintuitive but it comes from its modifier which adds quite a lot of Siege damage and multiple Tar Pits stack lol(think of Venn diagrams).

Tar Pits isn't 'super unintuitive' as AOE versus enemy units. It requires a significant amount of ability points (Tar Pit + Deeper Pits), it deals siege damage (75-100%% damage reduction on CM), it scales with the worst attribute (CON) in the game and it's utility as CC(Impaired and Oiled) is easily obtained in so many forms. There are other factors that is further in it's disfavor as well (cast time, FP cost, opportunity cost and so on).

It's just a really inefficient investment unless you specifically have need for a building demolisher (and it's still not relative great at it considering it's niché) or it's roleplay value when playing on Normal or lower (since Siege resistances are laughable compared to their potency there).

Spikes and Splitter can hit multiple times indeed, like in SH. This is mostly notable with bigger hitboxes, like with buildings. This is their saving grace rather than it just being 'most powerful', considering cooldown; cast time; focus cost amongst others.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

Even the Synergy isn't half bad especially now that Revenge got nerfed.

Calling it a nerf is a severe understatement. But then again, on paper you also thought it was functioning correctly. In practice Moon Spirit Revenge did and still only heals/inflicts ~30% of listed heal/damage/weakness/regeneration potency. So it's obviously easy to agree that Nature's synergy outperforms it (even though this synergy is bugged in a way as well).

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

And I still find Physical(Crush, Hurl) to be super underwhelming.

Crushing(/Combat Arts/Brutality) has always been in a stupidly good state. It's the fastest way to clear entire groups of ground based enemies (CM) while offering uncontested survivability to boot because the combination of a well designed skill tree (block chance, crit change, flat CD reduction, empowerment, resource management, efficient shield, movespeed etc) + gear interactions (weapon effects proc on all targets hit with whirlwind, like blood explosion or plague affliction).

If you think it's underwhelming in it's current implementation I implore you to broaden your experience because it's objectively overtuned (aside from relatively lacking AA and interrupt capability) in comparison to Nature amongst other things (melee always has been).

This holds true to a degree for Hurling, which is significantly more impressive than it's previous iterations, although it's more divided between DPS (STR) or utility (DEX) because of it's relevant Artefact weapons. The above conversation is sprouted because of objectively claiming 'most powerful', 'Nature shines in this mission in particular' and such sentiment. Like I always disclose, anything works on any difficulty (even on CM), but their relative power is debatable.

Apologies northw1nd. Since it takes away from the topic (Red Meadow) I'll end my reply here. Gorwe, if you want further discussion about the overall skill trees, their relative power to each other and what you think works best due to a recent experience just open a thread yourself for the opportunity to do so.

[Gorwe]

Początkowo opublikowane przez 5262:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

It's one of the most powerful single character AoE trees(maybe even the most powerful).

Bold and deficient statement (among others) without it holding much truth, lacking practical testing, relative objective comparisons, simple nuance and that sort of basic stuff. On that note, single character build theory shenanigans is poor practice when a party build is what's practical.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

Well, I meant stackable with itself. Tar Pit does have AoE dmg, yes it's super unintuitive but it comes from its modifier which adds quite a lot of Siege damage and multiple Tar Pits stack lol(think of Venn diagrams).

Tar Pits isn't 'super unintuitive' as AOE versus enemy units. It requires a significant amount of ability points (Tar Pit + Deeper Pits), it deals siege damage (75-100%% damage reduction on CM), it scales with the worst attribute (CON) in the game and it's utility as CC(Impaired and Oiled) is easily obtained in so many forms. There are other factors that is further in it's disfavor as well (cast time, FP cost, opportunity cost and so on).

It's just a really inefficient investment unless you specifically have need for a building demolisher (and it's still not relative great at it considering it's niché) or it's roleplay value when playing on Normal or lower (since Siege resistances are laughable compared to their potency there).

Spikes and Splitter can hit multiple times indeed, like in SH. This is mostly notable with bigger hitboxes, like with buildings. This is their saving grace rather than it just being 'most powerful', considering cooldown; cast time; focus cost amongst others.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

Even the Synergy isn't half bad especially now that Revenge got nerfed.

Calling it a nerf is a severe understatement. But then again, on paper you also thought it was functioning correctly. In practice Moon Spirit Revenge did and still only heals/inflicts ~30% of listed heal/damage/weakness/regeneration potency. So it's obviously easy to agree that Nature's synergy outperforms it (even though this synergy is bugged in a way as well).

Początkowo opublikowane przez Gorwe:

And I still find Physical(Crush, Hurl) to be super underwhelming.

Crushing(/Combat Arts/Brutality) has always been in a stupidly good state. It's the fastest way to clear entire groups of ground based enemies (CM) while offering uncontested survivability to boot because the combination of a well designed skill tree (block chance, crit change, flat CD reduction, empowerment, resource management, efficient shield, movespeed etc) + gear interactions (weapon effects proc on all targets hit with whirlwind, like blood explosion or plague affliction).

If you think it's underwhelming in it's current implementation I implore you to broaden your experience because it's objectively overtuned (aside from relatively lacking AA and interrupt capability) in comparison to Nature amongst other things (melee always has been).

This holds true to a degree for Hurling, which is significantly more impressive than it's previous iterations, although it's more divided between DPS (STR) or utility (DEX) because of it's relevant Artefact weapons. The above conversation is sprouted because of objectively claiming 'most powerful', 'Nature shines in this mission in particular' and such sentiment. Like I always disclose, anything works on any difficulty (even on CM), but their relative power is debatable.

Apologies northw1nd. Since it takes away from the topic (Red Meadow) I'll end my reply here. Gorwe, if you want further discussion about the overall skill trees, their relative power to each other and what you think works best due to a recent experience just open a thread yourself for the opportunity to do so.

Ok, back to my old thread then. Apologies Northw1nd.

[northw1nd]

Hey guys, all good, nps!

So I just finished the Meadow yesterday on CM, was pretty manageable, but I only held till like wave 38 or something and I was out of food to make reinforcements. I honestly don't know how you managed to hold till wave 200 or something lol, seemed pretty hard for me. Also, my heroes kept randomly running in and dying so that didn't help with my motivation either :D I mean, I was kinda low level (10-11), and my zazka is completely useless with the nature tree - he just spams the heal, but man, indefinite waves, IDK, I guess you're a god @5262, lol.


Another bug I have found, which was really annoying, every time I loaded my last saved game, it kept messing up my control groups - heroes would randomly get into control group 1, and would run around every time I moved my 2-3 armies, so I had to redo the control groups after every loading, which was pretty frustrating.

Anyway, it went better this time, maybe next time I can figure out how to farm that map (I really wanted to get lvl 15 or something).

[5262]

Początkowo opublikowane przez northw1nd:

Hey guys, all good, nps!

So I just finished the Meadow yesterday on CM, was pretty manageable, but I only held till like wave 38 or something and I was out of food to make reinforcements. I honestly don't know how you managed to hold till wave 200 or something lol, seemed pretty hard for me. Also, my heroes kept randomly running in and dying so that didn't help with my motivation either :D I mean, I was kinda low level (10-11), and my zazka is completely useless with the nature tree - he just spams the heal, but man, indefinite waves, IDK, I guess you're a god @5262, lol.


Another bug I have found, which was really annoying, every time I loaded my last saved game, it kept messing up my control groups - heroes would randomly get into control group 1, and would run around every time I moved my 2-3 armies, so I had to redo the control groups after every loading, which was pretty frustrating.

Anyway, it went better this time, maybe next time I can figure out how to farm that map (I really wanted to get lvl 15 or something).

Good to hear you completed it on CM this time round! It's such a good map.
I'm nay god, it's about correct positioning of units; AOE potential and spawn camping.

Agreed that Nature Zazka is pretty much one of the worst combinations you can give him though haha. It fits his style roleplay wise, but Crushing Zazka would like to have a word x).

If you time abilities correctly, most hero builds can start to clear decent chunks or the entire wave depending on build potential (ie. Blood Grungwar, Crushing Akrog) but troll units by themselves can clean up really well although getting certain upgrades really help (attack speed upgrade for Skull Crushers and Throwers). After that it's pretty smooth sailing and it's really fun to farm and get in an extra few levels for a build you have planned.

The link I mentioned showcased an example for you:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SpellForce/comments/jwbxdq/spellforce_3_fallen_god_reddest_meadow/

[Gorwe]

Początkowo opublikowane przez 5262:

Początkowo opublikowane przez northw1nd:

Hey guys, all good, nps!

So I just finished the Meadow yesterday on CM, was pretty manageable, but I only held till like wave 38 or something and I was out of food to make reinforcements. I honestly don't know how you managed to hold till wave 200 or something lol, seemed pretty hard for me. Also, my heroes kept randomly running in and dying so that didn't help with my motivation either :D I mean, I was kinda low level (10-11), and my zazka is completely useless with the nature tree - he just spams the heal, but man, indefinite waves, IDK, I guess you're a god @5262, lol.


Another bug I have found, which was really annoying, every time I loaded my last saved game, it kept messing up my control groups - heroes would randomly get into control group 1, and would run around every time I moved my 2-3 armies, so I had to redo the control groups after every loading, which was pretty frustrating.

Anyway, it went better this time, maybe next time I can figure out how to farm that map (I really wanted to get lvl 15 or something).

Good to hear you completed it on CM this time round! It's such a good map.
I'm nay god, it's about correct positioning of units; AOE potential and spawn camping.

Agreed that Nature Zazka is pretty much one of the worst combinations you can give him though haha. It fits his style roleplay wise, but Crushing Zazka would like to have a word x).

If you time abilities correctly, most hero builds can start to clear decent chunks or the entire wave depending on build potential (ie. Blood Grungwar, Crushing Akrog) but troll units by themselves can clean up really well although getting certain upgrades really help (attack speed upgrade for Skull Crushers and Throwers). After that it's pretty smooth sailing and it's really fun to farm and get in an extra few levels for a build you have planned.

The link I mentioned showcased an example for you:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SpellForce/comments/jwbxdq/spellforce_3_fallen_god_reddest_meadow/

How does Nature fit Zaz RP wise, except some keywords on skills? RP wise, he's most likely something physical, either Crush or Hurl. Ak is most likely Blood or Gloom and Grunf is Nature or Elemental(ignore crap Synergy Skill). Crush / Hurl Grunf is awesome, don't get me wrong, but it's just...when you imagine him, you don't imagine Crush or Hurl.

I love Nature Ak or Crush / Hurl Grunf, but that don't make them good!

[Mindeveler]

Początkowo opublikowane przez 5262:

Red Meadow is pretty much the best active EXP farm map, and I love dissecting stuff like that. Ive farmed up to wave 200

Man, I dunno how you farm SF3 , it's a pain in the ass.
Units are rarted, the moment I take my eyes off them they enter moron mode and behave like complete idiots. Ranged units are just blind, their melee fellows are being destroyed by birds 10 meters away from them, while they're standing still and pretend nothing's happening. And there is no way to merge units into a single brigande (to behave like 1, stick to each other).
And since enemies are attacking from at least 2 directions simultenously, I can only control 1 army and have to leave the other one to artificial idiot (I only use 2 - one consists of 4 heroes and a few melee/ranged trolls, another one consists of much bigger number of melee trolls and a few ranged ones).
It's....doable but annoying and pain in the ass.
Also waves are very strangely balanced. Some are huuuuuuuuge (and force me to replay them several times in order not to lose my entire army), others are a walk in the park.

[Mindeveler]

P.S. Best farm map is treasure/puzzle map where the golem spams infinite waves of low-tier zombies.

[Accidental Teamplay]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Mindeveler:

Początkowo opublikowane przez 5262:

Red Meadow is pretty much the best active EXP farm map, and I love dissecting stuff like that. Ive farmed up to wave 200

Man, I dunno how you farm SF3 , it's a pain in the ass.

https://imgur.com/a/tQJlyJw is what it looked like when I did it, but it's not quite as refined as what Nick is describing. Anyway there isn't much control involved, just proper positions and telling your Skull Crushers to go nuts is half the job done.

[5262]

I fancy your tweaks btw Crabs! <3 Still incorporate them in my game set-up, SF is a yearly revisit. A pity, had started but never finished a full skills/ability tweak list.