Why is everyone so out of place?

[Netsa]

I'm not that far into the game yet, but it seems like every other person you talk to is right out of 2022 America, but they're trying to pretend like they live in the forest. Including Aloy. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something off about the voice acting and the character models. Or maybe everyone fits and it's actually Rost that was out of place?

I feel like I'm fighting robot-monsters on a really large college campus. Everyone is either a student, a visiting parent, or faculty, and it's very easy to categorize everyone you meet as 1 of those 3.

[Code]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

I'm not that far into the game yet, but it seems like every other person you talk to is right out of 2022 America, but they're trying to pretend like they live in the forest. Including Aloy. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something off about the voice acting and the character models. Or maybe everyone fits and it's actually Rost that was out of place?

I feel like I'm fighting robot-monsters on a really large college campus. Everyone is either a student, a visiting parent, or faculty, and it's very easy to categorize everyone you meet as 1 of those 3.

Step outside the college campus bubble once in a while and you'll not aquate the game to a campus so much.

And I doubt everyone talks with such ignorance on a campus as they do in the game and if they do, I'd change campus lol

[Netsa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez inlimuniter:

Rost is explained as an outsider because of him going on a revenge mission that changed him.

Apollo is the archive of human history and culture that Faro deleted, Eleuthia is the sub function of GAIA responsible for the reintroduction of the human species via cloning and raising of humans from cryogenically preserved stocks of embryos at Cradle facilities.

The Nora do indeed not live in forests, but instead in houses in villages. They are tribal people, but not necessarily completely ignorant cave people.

Look, I mean, fair enough if you didn't care for the story and found it stupid, but you asked and people tried to give you an answer what is going on in the game. Calling people full of it when they're just trying to explain the game is interesting... At the end of the day the people who made the game wrote the story.

When I say Rost is out of place, I don't mean his position as an outcast. I mean how he literally talks and behaves completely differently from everyone else. He isn't matched by anyone inside the village unless you count Resh, nor is he matched by any other outcasts. Even Aloy somehow picked up zero of his mannerisms and talks more like Sobeck, which is overplaying the effects genes have.

Cloning people doesn't mean you will literally be them when your surroundings are completely different. Even if the Eleuthia kids picked up some things from what little educational materials they had access to, it doesn't explain why they all, down through the generations, talk as if they came right out of modern times. Especially the Nora, who shunned the technology.
(I do have one question regarding that, though. When exactly did the humans leave the vaults, relative to the time the game starts?)

The Nora are not tribal people, that's my point. They're supposed to be, but the characters presented, combined with the voice acting, doesn't sell it.

The person I pointed out as being full of it didn't try to explain anything, they just told me to finish the game. Looking back on the thread, I don't think anyone presented an explanation of the events besides you, unless they were agreeing with the OP. I said "you guys" thinking it was more than just two people, so if you took offense to the statement, I apologize.

[inlimuniter]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

When I say Rost is out of place, I don't mean his position as an outcast. I mean how he literally talks and behaves completely differently from everyone else. He isn't matched by anyone inside the village unless you count Resh, nor is he matched by any other outcasts. Even Aloy somehow picked up zero of his mannerisms and talks more like Sobeck, which is overplaying the effects genes have.

Gene's in a conventional, man and woman have child sense? I mean, she's a clone created for a specific purpose by an artificial intelligence. You really think she'd talk more like her adoptive father than the woman she is a clone of? Anyway, genes do actually have a huge affect of things. Sorry, but I mean, this is kind of the point I'm getting at, in a way...

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

Cloning people doesn't mean you will literally be them when your surroundings are completely different. Even if the Eleuthia kids picked up some things from what little educational materials they had access to, it doesn't explain why they all, down through the generations, talk as if they came right out of modern times. Especially the Nora, who shunned the technology.
(I do have one question regarding that, though. When exactly did the humans leave the vaults, relative to the time the game starts?)

Well... How exactly should they talk? Honestly, I'm curious what you mean by that, like "grunt, I'm a tribal person"?

I mean, they speak English. Not just some made up language of clicks and grunts...

If you took a group of modern humans, but where somehow able to take away all their knowledge of advance technology, air lift them to some biome completely cut off from modern society, but atleast make sure they they have basic knowledge, like that of a junior school kid, would their ancestors a few generations later talk in a completely kinda wild man in the woods kind of way?

The thing is it's all supposition, like I got at in my earlier post, the game doesn't really specifically state the period of time that has passed.. It makes the portrayal in the way it does. That's just the choice the develops went for. I mean, look, I don't think it's the most sophisticated writing ever in a video game or movie or whatever, but they did it the way they did it for the reasons they had.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

The Nora are not tribal people, that's my point. They're supposed to be, but the characters presented, combined with the voice acting, doesn't sell it.

Define tribal.

There are people who live in modern society who are tribal in nature.

The game is making a bit of a liberal political point about right wing people being "tribal" in nature, and how that is bad. That was essentially what super rich greedy Ted Faro wanted, instead of taking responsibility for his own mistake caused by his own greed and ego, he blames everybody else and punishes them by taking away their access to advanced technology, causing them to be tribal. Aloy throughout the game talks to many characters about this. how it's bad that the world now is tribal in nature, and it would be a better place to live if it were not.

It's not exactly genius writing, and certainly it's one sided in nature.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

The person I pointed out as being full of it didn't try to explain anything, they just told me to finish the game. Looking back on the thread, I don't think anyone presented an explanation of the events besides you, unless they were agreeing with the OP. I said "you guys" thinking it was more than just two people, so if you took offense to the statement, I apologize.

No offense was taken, honestly.

I play games mostly these days for the story and the lore. So if people want to talk to me about that side of it then I'm interested in discussing it. If it's just gonna be "no you wrong, game suck" type of discussions then I have got better things to do with my time.

[countgrey]

Regarding Rost, he's definitively unique. He was literally viewed as dead when he became a Death Seeker and left the Sacred Lands, and allowing him to return and live as an Outcast was seen as a great boon. As such, he's literally the only Nora to have travelled far and wide, experiencing a range of cultures and lifestyles that the other Nora by and large view as heresy/Outlander nonsense. Even the other Outcasts don't match with him because they were usually cast out for commiting crimes, and the ones who traveled haven't gone nearly as far as Rost did. Rost is basically someone who left a small town and went on a long, international trip: comparing him to people who only went over to the next village doesn't work.

As far as language/linguistic drift goes - which is what you're referring to - it's actually harder for language to drift when everyone in the region has the same exact starting language. Furthermore, the relatively frequent contact with other tribes ensures that if one group starts to internally drift it will be noticeable. There's literally no other languages existing (at least in the region) to influence their starting language, either. There could also be an element of the starting language being tied up in religion (like how Latin was spoken by the Church for centuries after Latin fell into disuse by the public) but that isn't confirmed in the Lore. As for the Nora shunning technology, they don't view the "Voice" in All-Mother mountain as technology, but as their Ancestor/Primogenitor, which kind of ties in with the religious aspect.

As for Sobeck sounding the same as Aloy, that's some level of creative license coupled with a relatively minor suspension of disbelief, as well as perhaps you not quite hearing the differences in tones with how they speak. Yes, it's the same voice actress, but Sobeck sounds older and more experienced: she's somewhat exasperated, sharper/cutting, etc. Aloy sounds younger, more brash, etc. Even putting that aside, it's not uncommon for parent and child to have very similar sounding voices despite being raised in different environments, so expecting a clone to sound very dissimilar barring no major factors that influence vocal development is a bit unreasonable. Sobeck had access to great medical technology that ensured her voice was healthy, while Aloy grew up in a world largely absent of pollution: in other words, neither has a good reason to sound vastly different from each other.

Regarding the Nora being a tribal people, you may want to examine your definition of "tribal." Tribal doesn't mean super primitive or a single very specific lifestyle. Being a tribe is essentially a social group/culture composed chiefly of numerous families, clans, or generations having a shared ancestry and language. Which is exactly what the Nora are: a tribe. Unfortunately, when many people think of "tribe" they picture stereotypical Native Americans riding around on horses from place to place - nevermind the fact that many Native American tribes had permanent dwellings, or that after horses went extinct in the Americas thousands of years ago they weren't reintroduced until the 1500s. Even putting the Nora aside, the various other cultures tend to be internally united with their own specific shared ancestry and customs, so they also qualify as tribes.

FYI, the E-9 cradle released people 260 years after the planet was wiped due to food shortages, but a full 35 years before the planet was restored enough to support minimal life: this is why the creation myths of the Banuk talk about how much suffering their ancestors went through. Between the Faro plague and Aloy's birth was roughly 955 years, which means that for 695 years the various tribes have been developing outside of the cradles. Which, while a relatively long time, doesn't impact linguistic drift much according to the previous explanations.

[Netsa]

That's a reasonable explanation for Rost.

695 years is way more than enough to impact linguistic drift, regardless of the absence of other languages.

Początkowo opublikowane przez inlimuniter:

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Gene's in a conventional, man and woman have child sense? I mean, she's a clone created for a specific purpose by an artificial intelligence. You really think she'd talk more like her adoptive father than the woman she is a clone of? Anyway, genes do actually have a huge affect of things. Sorry, but I mean, this is kind of the point I'm getting at, in a way...

-

Well... How exactly should they talk? Honestly, I'm curious what you mean by that, like "grunt, I'm a tribal person"?

I mean, they speak English. Not just some made up language of clicks and grunts...

If you took a group of modern humans, but where somehow able to take away all their knowledge of advance technology, air lift them to some biome completely cut off from modern society, but atleast make sure they they have basic knowledge, like that of a junior school kid, would their ancestors a few generations later talk in a completely kinda wild man in the woods kind of way?

The thing is it's all supposition, like I got at in my earlier post, the game doesn't really specifically state the period of time that has passed.. It makes the portrayal in the way it does. That's just the choice the develops went for. I mean, look, I don't think it's the most sophisticated writing ever in a video game or movie or whatever, but they did it the way they did it for the reasons they had.

-

Define tribal.

There are people who live in modern society who are tribal in nature.

The game is making a bit of a liberal political point about right wing people being "tribal" in nature, and how that is bad. That was essentially what super rich greedy Ted Faro wanted, instead of taking responsibility for his own mistake caused by his own greed and ego, he blames everybody else and punishes them by taking away their access to advanced technology, causing them to be tribal. Aloy throughout the game talks to many characters about this. how it's bad that the world now is tribal in nature, and it would be a better place to live if it were not.

It's not exactly genius writing, and certainly it's one sided in nature.

Yes, she would. Sharing someone's speech patterns relies partially, at the very least, on sharing their vocabulary. Sobeck was a prodigal scientist that lived in the near-future. Saying Aloy should talk like her when she was raised by Rost in a forest is a stretch. I'm not saying genes don't matter, but this game seems to think they completely transcend environment.

Bypassing them speaking English, they would likely be speaking with a more unique dialect. Lots of cultures around the world speak English today, but none of them sound the same. Language evolves over time, even across relatively short distances, so the question of exactly how long it's been since they left the vaults is important. I also have a problem with the Nora's general physical builds and perceived cleanliness, but that's probably just me.

By "tribal", I mean it in the sense of "primitive". Using the more literal definition of "tribal", you're right, they were (and so was everyone else). Still, they were tribal in the way you described here, which is strange for the setting of the game: "If you took a group of modern humans, but where somehow able to take away all their knowledge of advance technology, [and] air lift them to some biome completely cut off from modern society."

[inlimuniter]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

That's a reasonable explanation for Rost.
695 years is way more than enough to impact linguistic drift, regardless of the absence of other languages.


Yes, she would. Sharing someone's speech patterns relies partially, at the very least, on sharing their vocabulary. Sobeck was a prodigal scientist that lived in the near-future. Saying Aloy should talk like her when she was raised by Rost in a forest is a stretch. I'm not saying genes don't matter, but this game seems to think they completely transcend environment.

Bypassing them speaking English, they would likely be speaking with a more unique dialect. Lots of cultures around the world speak English today, but none of them sound the same. Language evolves over time, even across relatively short distances, so the question of exactly how long it's been since they left the vaults is important. I also have a problem with the Nora's general physical builds and perceived cleanliness, but that's probably just me.

By "tribal", I mean it in the sense of "primitive". Using the more literal definition of "tribal", you're right, they were (and so was everyone else). Still, they were tribal in the way you described here, which is strange for the setting of the game: "If you took a group of modern humans, but where somehow able to take away all their knowledge of advance technology, [and] air lift them to some biome completely cut off from modern society."

Well, I'd disagree that she talks exactly like her. But I honestly don't see why it's such a big deal to you. She's a clone created by machines in a science fiction game. The woman who voices her voices also Elizabeth Sobeck. What exactly would her talking more like Rost sound like? I mean, the game is about Aloy, not about Rost. She may have been brought up by Rost, but she has not had the same life experiences as him.

I don't disagree that the question of the length of time that has passed is important. I wasn't aware of the length of the time that the other poster mentioned, and, yeah that is a long time.

I hate to put it like this though, but I just think you're just overthinking it a bit, obviously more than the developers did. Like I said earlier, it provides the explanation it does and portrays it in the way it does. I never said that the writing in the game is the most well thought out and intelligent writing ever. I mean, it's a superficial mainstream game, and I enjoyed it on that level, but this isn't like a Stanley Kubrick movie.

[Netsa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez inlimuniter:

Well, I'd disagree that she talks exactly like her. But I honestly don't see why it's such a big deal to you. She's a clone created by machines in a science fiction game. The woman who voices her voices also Elizabeth Sobeck. What exactly would her talking more like Rost sound like? I mean, the game is about Aloy, not about Rost. She may have been brought up by Rost, but she has not had the same life experiences as him.

I don't disagree that the question of the length of time that has passed is important. I wasn't aware of the length of the time that the other poster mentioned, and, yeah that is a long time.

I hate to put it like this though, but I just think you're just overthinking it a bit, obviously more than the developers did. Like I said earlier, it provides the explanation it does and portrays it in the way it does. I never said that the writing in the game is the most well thought out and intelligent writing ever. I mean, it's a superficial mainstream game, and I enjoyed it on that level, but this isn't like a Stanley Kubrick movie.

It's a big deal to me because she's the main character of the game. I have to hear her talk constantly. They made a point out of having us play her as a little girl, seeing her get hit with a rock as an outcast, and then showing us how heartbroken she was to be away from Rost when she did the Proving. This establishes that she had very little outside influence besides him and the Focus device, but they don't do anything with that information.

How does "talking more like Rost" sound like? It would sound more gruff, for lack of a better word, basically like Sona (in terms of diction).

I wouldn't deny that I'm probably overthinking it. It just seems like they put too much effort into the world and the lore to skimp on building a believable story. The way they did the historical segments was pretty good, for the most part. It reminded me a lot of Talos Principle. But then I have to get back to Aloy and Teb and Erend and Varl, and I just can't...

[inlimuniter]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

It's a big deal to me because she's the main character of the game. I have to hear her talk constantly. They made a point out of having us play her as a little girl, seeing her get hit with a rock as an outcast, and then showing us how heartbroken she was to be away from Rost when she did the Proving. This establishes that she had very little outside influence besides him and the Focus device, but they don't do anything with that information.

How does "talking more like Rost" sound like? It would sound more gruff, for lack of a better word, basically like Sona (in terms of diction).

I wouldn't deny that I'm probably overthinking it. It just seems like they put too much effort into the world and the lore to skimp on building a believable story. The way they did the historical segments was pretty good, for the most part. It reminded me a lot of Talos Principle. But then I have to get back to Aloy and Teb and Erend and Varl, and I just can't... :csdsick:

I think 'believable' is an interesting thing to measure a fictional story on. I would certainly say that the game has a decent degree of immersion due to the level of detail and that I found it fun and exciting at times, but believable? Nah. But did that bother me particularly? No... I wouldn't really say I play games looking for something that is believable. They'll primarily about fantasy and escapism for me.

Who is Sona? All I can find googling that name is a LoL character. I don't play that game.

[Netsa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez inlimuniter:

I think 'believable' is an interesting thing to measure a fictional story on. I would certainly say that the game has a decent degree of immersion due to the level of detail and that I found it fun and exciting at times, but believable? Nah. But did that bother me particularly? No... I wouldn't really say I play games looking for something that is believable. They'll primarily about fantasy and escapism for me.

Who is Sona? All I can find googling that name is a LoL character. I don't play that game.

She was Varl's mom, the Nora war-chief. You can find her wiki page by going through Varl's page.

Every story, fictional or not, has a level of credibility. You know, suspension of disbelief. It's important for a story to follow its own rules. Horizon takes place in a future version of the real world and incorporates several real ideas and places, so they were definitely going for a "this could happen" feel. And then a spotless Aloy steps out of the forest with snarky quips and everyone hitting on her.

[inlimuniter]

Oh that Sona... Hmm. I mean, Sona's cool and everything, but really, that kind of woman as the lead character. I think it'd be a very different kind of game.

Well exactly, suspension of disbelief, something that doesn't necessarily require everything to make complete logical sense. I mean, I honestly think it's more about artistic interpretation. Whilst Horizon Zero Dawn may indeed have a "this could happen" theme to it, it's biased one sided portrayal of things is nothing like reality.

[countgrey]

Part of linguistic drift relies upon groups being isolated from each other, as well as being exposed to different languages to help push/pull the base language. None of these groups are isolated from each other to that degree, and the lack of other languages helps ensure that there's going to be a very minimal drift. It's also worth noting that nobody developed language on their own: it was fed to them by robotic servitors in a complete form. As such, the various tribes have only had to develop their own particular jargon - such as Werak - which could be taken as an example of drift.

That said, what would you prefer instead? People randomly having accents that we'd recognize as Southern US, British, Russian, etc? Or go full Skyrim and have people talk with vaguely Northern European accents? Everyone talking like the Sims? No matter what they choose, it breaks some level of immersion in the world. At least choosing to have almost everyone speak with a very generic standard accent ensures that the majority of English-speaking players can clearly understand what is being said. There's really no perfect option here.

[Netsa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez countgrey:

Part of linguistic drift relies upon groups being isolated from each other, as well as being exposed to different languages to help push/pull the base language. None of these groups are isolated from each other to that degree, and the lack of other languages helps ensure that there's going to be a very minimal drift. It's also worth noting that nobody developed language on their own: it was fed to them by robotic servitors in a complete form. As such, the various tribes have only had to develop their own particular jargon - such as Werak - which could be taken as an example of drift.

That said, what would you prefer instead? People randomly having accents that we'd recognize as Southern US, British, Russian, etc? Or go full Skyrim and have people talk with vaguely Northern European accents? Everyone talking like the Sims? No matter what they choose, it breaks some level of immersion in the world. At least choosing to have almost everyone speak with a very generic standard accent ensures that the majority of English-speaking players can clearly understand what is being said. There's really no perfect option here.

I'm going to need a source on why you think drift works that way. Only the first humans released had that language served to them, the rest had to have learned it from the generations before them. For there to be that little variance over that much time, there couldn't have even been any experimentation (creative writing, poetry, music, etc).

Choosing to have everyone speak with a standard, northern-US accent is among the worst options they could have gone with. Having a hodgepodge of accents would have been silly, but it also would have saved me from speaking to a dark-skinned middle-eastern guy and then a heavy-set white guy who both have exactly the same voice acting.

Go the Skyrim route. Go the Animal Crossing route, if you need to. Use your imagination and come up with random fake words, Bladerunner-style. Don't just stick me in LARP-land and call it a day.

[Seamus]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

Choosing to have everyone speak with a standard, northern-US accent is among the worst options they could have gone with.

https://www.republicworld.com/technology-news/gaming/where-does-horizon-zero-dawn-take-place-heres-everything-you-need-to-know.html
"Horizon Zero Dawn is set in the United States, in the states of Colorado and Utah, as well as sections of northern Arizona and a small portion of Montana."

I mean.. that is where it takes place.

[Netsa]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Seamus:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

Choosing to have everyone speak with a standard, northern-US accent is among the worst options they could have gone with.

https://www.republicworld.com/technology-news/gaming/where-does-horizon-zero-dawn-take-place-heres-everything-you-need-to-know.html
"Horizon Zero Dawn is set in the United States, in the states of Colorado and Utah, as well as sections of northern Arizona and a small portion of Montana."

I mean.. that is where it takes place.

If we turned the clock back 1000 years from today, would you expect anyone living on that same land to talk the same way they do now?

[Seamus]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Netsa:

If we turned the clock back 1000 years from today, would you expect anyone living on that same land to talk the same way they do now?

Except, people 1000 years ago weren't descended from clones of current-era americans.

The people in HZD are.