This is an "ARPG"?

[Wickedj]

Ummmm Diablo and path of exile would like to have a word with you HZD.

[Turbo Nozomix]

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

Why are you lying again?

We've gone over this multiple times, and you've learned it multiple times over. But your memory keeps being flushed. What condition is it that you have, if you don't mind my asking? Being aware of it could make responding to you easier and change how it's done.

ah classic, the "i lost the argument so i will result to insults"

be a better person then you were today, if you even can.

Oh, that is no insult. Chaos Residue literally has a memory problem where it's like their memory of what's been talked about is 100% flushed from them. This is a recurring issue of theirs which has affected conversion after conversation in thread after thread. It's a 100% real issue, and I'm asking if they wouldn't mind sharing what it is, as it could affect how I respond to them.

They know exactly what I'm talking about.


And, of course, you've lost your argument and are shamelessly attempting to save-face. But I think there's no point, because any you had remaining was, I think, discarded a long time ago.

[zero]

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

yeah, hes not even right on that part, a DM's job is to run the game, which means what they do depends ENTIRELY on the game they are running, some games provide agency, sure, but like i said a few pages back, some D&D adventure paths have no agency, they are pure dungeon crawls, some are straight up called meat grinders cause they're designed to kill off player characters left and right.

a DM ultimately is a manager of a game, but aren't there to provide agency.

hes trying to argue in bad faith, its shameful, but what can you expect from someone who provides a definition that disproves his argument, but ignores anybody who tells them that

You've been disproved on this point, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master

"The DM is responsible for narrative flow, creating the scenario and setting in which the game takes place, maintaining the pace and providing dynamic feedback.[6] In storyteller role, the DM is responsible for describing the events of the D&D game session and making rulings about game situations and effects based on the decisions made by the players."

Dungeon Crawls also have player agency.

You and the other wrong person sure lie a lot to try to cover the fact that your arguments have no merit and have been debunked.

literally nowhere in your definition does a DM have to give players agency, you realize, but good job shooting your own foot, in no definition was the word agency used.

but ultimately, by definition of action rpg, action has to be the focus of the gameplay (check), and you have to be playing a role of a fictional character in a setting (aloy, check again)

action rpg, simple as that, using the definitions you provided over several pages.

you argue in bad faith, be better then the person you were today, or are you going to resort to insults again?

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

ah classic, the "i lost the argument so i will result to insults"

be a better person then you were today, if you even can.

Oh, that is no insult. Chaos Residue literally has a memory problem where it's like their memory of what's been talked about is 100% flushed from them. This is a recurring issue of theirs which has affects conversion after conversation in thread after thread. It's a 100% real issue, and I'm asking if they wouldn't mind sharing what it is, as it could affect how I respond to them.

They know exactly what I'm talking about.


And, of course, you've lost your argument and are shamelessly attempting to save-face. But I think there's no point, because any you had remaining was, I think, discarded a long time ago.

and there it is.
ah yes, the classic "i insulted someone but i dont wanna own up to it" be better then that, if you can.

[Turbo Nozomix]

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

You've been disproved on this point, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master

"The DM is responsible for narrative flow, creating the scenario and setting in which the game takes place, maintaining the pace and providing dynamic feedback.[6] In storyteller role, the DM is responsible for describing the events of the D&D game session and making rulings about game situations and effects based on the decisions made by the players."

Dungeon Crawls also have player agency.

You and the other wrong person sure lie a lot to try to cover the fact that your arguments have no merit and have been debunked.

literally nowhere in your definition does a DM have to give players agency, you realize, but good job shooting your own foot, in no definition was the word agency used.

but ultimately, by definition of action rpg, action has to be the focus of the gameplay (check), and you have to be playing a role of a fictional character in a setting (aloy, check again)

action rpg, simple as that, using the definitions you provided over several pages.

you argue in bad faith, be better then the person you were today, or are you going to resort to insults again?

When you pretend to be dumb to not get what's being said, then you're kind-of admitting that you aren't just pretending, because you couldn't actually think of anything valid to say - yet chose to speak regardless.

The dynamic feedback and rulings the DM makes about situations based on decisions made by the players is player agency.

Your hypocritical attempt to be condescending only underscores your severe desperation at having your arguments nullified. Go on, tell everyone again how DOOM and Half-Life are RPGs. That's always a winning argument (at least in your mind).

[zero]

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

literally nowhere in your definition does a DM have to give players agency, you realize, but good job shooting your own foot, in no definition was the word agency used.

but ultimately, by definition of action rpg, action has to be the focus of the gameplay (check), and you have to be playing a role of a fictional character in a setting (aloy, check again)

action rpg, simple as that, using the definitions you provided over several pages.

you argue in bad faith, be better then the person you were today, or are you going to resort to insults again?

When you pretend to be dumb to not get what's being said, then you're kind-of admitting that you aren't just pretending, because you couldn't actually think of anything valid to say - yet chose to speak regardless.

i hope you realize the irony of what you said here, when you have provided a definition, and people have applied it to HZD, and proven it to be an ARPG by the definition you provided.

be better then who you are today.

[Chaos Residue]

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

Chaos Residue eredeti hozzászólása:

Yeah, he definitely made up the definition he provided for Game Master which states that player agency is a requirement. I can't find any definition of Game Master which lists player agency as either a direct or an indirect requirement.

Why are you lying again?

How did I lie? This was your definition of Game Master:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

In an RPG, the Game Master creates scenarios for the players and makes outcomes, to interact with the players' actions, to create a unique story via player agency.

I Googled that and couldn't find a single source with that definition. Which means you created the definition. Furthermore, I provided multiple definitions I found for Game Master, and none of them say anything about player agency. If you did snag that definition from somewhere (instead of cobbling it together yourself) then provide the source for it.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

We've gone over this multiple times, and you've learned it multiple times over. But your memory keeps being flushed. What condition is it that you have, if you don't mind my asking? Being aware of it could make responding to you easier and change how it's done.

Nothing on the internet is coming up with the above definition that you supplied. It's not possible that you sourced your definition if the internet holds no record that that definition exists.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons

"The DM is responsible for narrative flow, creating the scenario and setting in which the game takes place, maintaining the pace and providing dynamic feedback.[6] In storyteller role, the DM is responsible for describing the events of the D&D game session and making rulings about game situations and effects based on the decisions made by the players."

That says nothing about player agency, while your definition mentions player agency as a requirement. This says the Game Master describes the game, and makes rulings regarding the outcome of actions made. E.g. did the attack hit or miss, what damage was done, how much did you heal for, were you able to flee, etcetera. It could also describe actions that would be considered player agency (such as a narrative choice that alters the game), but it isn't explicitly stating player agency is required.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

"Both authors and major publishers of tabletop role-playing games consider them to be a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling."

"Interactivity is the crucial difference between role-playing games and traditional fiction."

This isn't a definition. And that section of the RPG page says the main article is RPG Theory, and that article states that the definition of RPG is constantly theorized, but that there isn't an objective definition.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

"The GM describes the game world and its inhabitants. The other players describe the intended actions of their characters, and the GM describes the outcomes."

That says nothing about player agency, while your definition mentions player agency as a requirement. This definition just says the GM describes the outcomes of player actions. E.g. did the attack hit or miss, what damage was done, how much did you heal for, were you able to flee, etcetera. It could also describe actions that would be considered player agency (such as a narrative choice that alters the game), but it isn't explicitly stating player agency is required.

[Turbo Nozomix]

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

Oh, that is no insult. Chaos Residue literally has a memory problem where it's like their memory of what's been talked about is 100% flushed from them. This is a recurring issue of theirs which has affects conversion after conversation in thread after thread. It's a 100% real issue, and I'm asking if they wouldn't mind sharing what it is, as it could affect how I respond to them.

They know exactly what I'm talking about.


And, of course, you've lost your argument and are shamelessly attempting to save-face. But I think there's no point, because any you had remaining was, I think, discarded a long time ago.

and there it is.
ah yes, the classic "i insulted someone but i dont wanna own up to it" be better then that, if you can.

Tell yourself what you want. I've explained it, I wasn't asking you, and Chaos Residue knows exactly what I'm talking about. It's been an issue that has negative affected many conversations we've had across many discussion threads on Steam, and if I knew what it was, it could affect how I respond to them.

You aren't scoring any points with your pretentious false indignation. You're simply underscoring your desperation to find anything to try to grab on-to to get back some of what you've lost.

[Turbo Nozomix]

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

When you pretend to be dumb to not get what's being said, then you're kind-of admitting that you aren't just pretending, because you couldn't actually think of anything valid to say - yet chose to speak regardless.

i hope you realize the irony of what you said here, when you have provided a definition, and people have applied it to HZD, and proven it to be an ARPG by the definition you provided.

be better then who you are today.

No-one has taken a definition that I've provided and applied it to HZD to prove it to be an ARPG by a definition that I provided.

No-one has demonstrated HZD to be an ARPG.

You are entertaining delusion in order to avoid facing the reality of what has happened here. No, DOOM and Half-Life are not RPGs. No, you haven't made an argument demonstrating that you understand what an RPG is.

[Chaos Residue]

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

and there it is.
ah yes, the classic "i insulted someone but i dont wanna own up to it" be better then that, if you can.

Tell yourself what you want. I've explained it, I wasn't asking you, and Chaos Residue knows exactly what I'm talking about. It's been an issue that has negative affected many conversations we've had across many discussion threads on Steam, and if I knew what it was, it could affect how I respond to them.

You aren't scoring any points with your pretentious false indignation. You're simply underscoring your desperation to find anything to try to grab on-to to get back some of what you've lost.

You're the one that is pretentious. You're also extremely arrogant. You refuse to admit that the definition of RPG has not be specifically defined in any sort of official capacity, which means that the definition of RPG is largely subjective.

[jscjml]

Sad Skeletor eredeti hozzászólása:

Sinistra eredeti hozzászólása:

Ummmm Diablo and path of exile would like to have a word with you HZD.

Learn your genres. ARPG means action+ RPG. What you are referring to is isometric hack n slash ARPG. Yes Horizon ZD is ARPG. There is action, and there is character progression and loot. So ... ARPG.

Vixus eredeti hozzászólása:

I always thought Final Fantasy and Mass Effect games were the definite standard for ARPG.

Sorry but FF is not even vaguely ARPG. It is JRPG. Every single one except the MMO's ( 11 and 14) are JRPG.

FF15 and FF7 Remake are ARPG, arent those RPGs with real time combat?

[zero]

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

and there it is.
ah yes, the classic "i insulted someone but i dont wanna own up to it" be better then that, if you can.

Tell yourself what you want. I've explained it, I wasn't asking you, and Chaos Residue knows exactly what I'm talking about. It's been an issue that has negative affected many conversations we've had across many discussion threads on Steam, and if I knew what it was, it could affect how I respond to them.

You aren't scoring any points with your pretentious false indignation. You're simply underscoring your desperation to find anything to try to grab on-to to get back some of what you've lost.

imagine trying to pretend that anyone who disproves you is what..forgetful? shameful, be better then who you were today.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

i hope you realize the irony of what you said here, when you have provided a definition, and people have applied it to HZD, and proven it to be an ARPG by the definition you provided.

be better then who you are today.

No-one has taken a definition that I've provided and applied it to HZD to prove it to be an ARPG by a definition that I provided.

No-one has demonstrated HZD to be an ARPG.

You are entertaining delusion in order to avoid facing the reality of what has happened here. No, DOOM and Half-Life are not RPGs. No, you haven't made an argument demonstrating that you understand what an RPG is.

aight: bet, watch.

wmx187 eredeti hozzászólása:

Its been stated that Legend of Zelda is ARPG to this day. HZD plays like Zelda therefore its ARPG
Looter shooters have rpg elements and leveling up so its not FPS but also ARPG

page 27.

Victoria Raverna eredeti hozzászólása:

If Gold box AD&D series are computer RPGs, then Skyrim is RPG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Box

Most Gold box AD&D series are linear with almost no "player agency".

26

me! eredeti hozzászólása:

wiki eredeti hozzászólása:

The games emphasize real-time combat where the player has direct control over the characters as opposed to turn or menu-based combat while still having a focus on character's Stats in order to determine relative strength and abilities. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games. Action role-playing games may also incorporate action-adventure games, which include a mission system and RPG mechanics, or massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) with real-time combat systems.

a game that combines real time control of a character (action) while having a focus roleplaying elements (the skill tree, for example)

and it is POSSIBLE for an ARPG to also have mechanics of an action-adventure game.

as such, BY DEFINITION, HZD is an ARPG.

28.

its that simple.

[Chaos Residue]

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

i hope you realize the irony of what you said here, when you have provided a definition, and people have applied it to HZD, and proven it to be an ARPG by the definition you provided.

be better then who you are today.

No-one has taken a definition that I've provided and applied it to HZD to prove it to be an ARPG by a definition that I provided.

No-one has demonstrated HZD to be an ARPG.

I can do it.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

The term ARPG was created for Diablo and, from the beginning, has referred to a hack-n-slash with stats. That's really all that an ARPG is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_and_slash

Hack and slash or hack and slay (H&S or HnS; also can be stylized in a hyphenated form as in hack-and-slash, or with a contracted conjunction as in hack 'n' slay) refers to a type of gameplay that emphasizes combat with melee based weapons (such as swords or blades) and a few projectile based weapons as well (such as guns). It is a subgenre of the Beat 'em up genre which focuses on melee combat usually with fists.

The term "hack and slash" was originally used to describe a play style in tabletop role-playing games, carrying over from there to MUDs, MMORPGs, and role-playing video games. In arcade- and console-style action video games, the term has a different usage, specifically implying a focus on real-time combat with hand-to-hand weapons as opposed to guns or fists.

Horizon Zero Dawn fits the definition of Hack-and-Slash. And it has armor/weapon stats as well as an HP stat.

By your definition of ARPG, Horizon Zero Dawn is an ARPG.

[Turbo Nozomix]

Chaos Residue eredeti hozzászólása:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons

"The DM is responsible for narrative flow, creating the scenario and setting in which the game takes place, maintaining the pace and providing dynamic feedback.[6] In storyteller role, the DM is responsible for describing the events of the D&D game session and making rulings about game situations and effects based on the decisions made by the players."

That says nothing about player agency, while your definition mentions player agency as a requirement. This says the Game Master describes the game, and makes rulings regarding the outcome of actions made. E.g. did the attack hit or miss, what damage was done, how much did you heal for, were you able to flee, etcetera.

Those things are decided by players rolling dice.

The GM creates larger-scale reactivity to player actions.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

When you pretend to be dumb to not get what's being said, then you're kind-of admitting that you aren't just pretending, because you couldn't actually think of anything valid to say - yet chose to speak regardless.

The dynamic feedback and rulings the DM makes about situations based on decisions made by the players is player agency.

What is Player Agency and what is it good for?[rpg.stackexchange.com]

"From a game design perspective, Player Agency is the player's ability to impact the story through the game design or gameplay"

Player Agency, Critical States, and Games as Formal Systems[gamasutra.com]

"player agency describes the ability of a player to interact meaningfully with game world. More than simple action/feedback interactivity, agency refers to knowing actions taken by the player that result in significant changes within the world."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

"Both authors and major publishers of tabletop role-playing games consider them to be a form of interactive and collaborative storytelling."

The interactive storytelling is created by the GM making decisions based on player actions.

[zero]

jscjml eredeti hozzászólása:

Sad Skeletor eredeti hozzászólása:

Learn your genres. ARPG means action+ RPG. What you are referring to is isometric hack n slash ARPG. Yes Horizon ZD is ARPG. There is action, and there is character progression and loot. So ... ARPG.


Sorry but FF is not even vaguely ARPG. It is JRPG. Every single one except the MMO's ( 11 and 14) are JRPG.

FF15 and FF7 Remake are ARPG

correcto! they are ALSO JRPGS, those two types of games do not contradict!

[Turbo Nozomix]

zero eredeti hozzászólása:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

Tell yourself what you want. I've explained it, I wasn't asking you, and Chaos Residue knows exactly what I'm talking about. It's been an issue that has negative affected many conversations we've had across many discussion threads on Steam, and if I knew what it was, it could affect how I respond to them.

You aren't scoring any points with your pretentious false indignation. You're simply underscoring your desperation to find anything to try to grab on-to to get back some of what you've lost.

imagine trying to pretend that anyone who disproves you is what..forgetful? shameful, be better then who you were today.

Imagine thinking that doubling-down on false indignation and playing-dumb would get you somewhere here.

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

No-one has taken a definition that I've provided and applied it to HZD to prove it to be an ARPG by a definition that I provided.

No-one has demonstrated HZD to be an ARPG.

You are entertaining delusion in order to avoid facing the reality of what has happened here. No, DOOM and Half-Life are not RPGs. No, you haven't made an argument demonstrating that you understand what an RPG is.

aight: bet, watch.

wmx187 eredeti hozzászólása:

Its been stated that Legend of Zelda is ARPG to this day. HZD plays like Zelda therefore its ARPG
Looter shooters have rpg elements and leveling up so its not FPS but also ARPG

page 27.

And you fail.

It would help if you knew what Legend of Zelda actually is.

https://youtu.be/6g2vk8Gudqs

Legend of Zelda is nothing like HZD. Legend of Zelda can actually qualify as an ARPG - though, the genre label was retroactively applied to it after Diablo coined the term ARPG.

Victoria Raverna eredeti hozzászólása:

If Gold box AD&D series are computer RPGs, then Skyrim is RPG.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Box

Most Gold box AD&D series are linear with almost no "player agency".

26

That's fail #2.

If they lacked player agency, then they wouldn't be RPGs. However, they have more player agency than Skryim.

https://youtu.be/wkjAOMkDAOM

"Pool of Radiance was considered a classic in its time for a reason. It offers a massively-sprawling campaign with choices and consequences depending on the player's actions."

me! eredeti hozzászólása:

a game that combines real time control of a character (action) while having a focus roleplaying elements (the skill tree, for example)

and it is POSSIBLE for an ARPG to also have mechanics of an action-adventure game.

as such, BY DEFINITION, HZD is an ARPG.

28.

its that simple.

That's fail #3.

An ARPG isn't simply a game that has RT combat an RPG-associated elements. It's a game which has a heavy emphasis on combat, with combat pacing similar to hack-n-slash games, while combining it with some RPG-associated elements.

So, HZD, which doesn't have that focus on combat and has a variety of emphasized experiences (exploration, story, combat, character development), isn't an ARPG. HZD is an Action-Adventure game.

[Chaos Residue]

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

Chaos Residue eredeti hozzászólása:

Turbo Nozomix eredeti hozzászólása:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons

"The DM is responsible for narrative flow, creating the scenario and setting in which the game takes place, maintaining the pace and providing dynamic feedback.[6] In storyteller role, the DM is responsible for describing the events of the D&D game session and making rulings about game situations and effects based on the decisions made by the players."

That says nothing about player agency, while your definition mentions player agency as a requirement. This says the Game Master describes the game, and makes rulings regarding the outcome of actions made. E.g. did the attack hit or miss, what damage was done, how much did you heal for, were you able to flee, etcetera.

Those things are decided by players rolling dice.

The GM creates larger-scale reactivity to player actions.

The players role the dice, but the GM lets them know the outcome of the roll. Nowhere in that definition does it specify what "game situations and effects" they are referring to. Without an explicit definition your subjective opinion on what they mean holds no more weight than my own subjective opinion on what they mean. You can't use that as proof of player agency since it doesn't specify the type of action or state player agency by name. Claiming that you know what they mean is speculation - nothing more.