[Spoilers] How is this a story about empathy? Please explain.

[blossom]

Almost a week after watching the end of Omori, I've been trying to understand it, and my only conclusion is people who say it's one of their favorite games honestly kinda scare me. I don't understand how this is a story about empathy or what kind of f'd up **** you'd have to have done in your life to empathize with its characters.

[The Milk Man]

Messaggio originale di nofnx:

Well I just beat the game and I also don't think that a major theme is about empathy at all. Anyway, the characters aren't bad people though and we get to see Sunny's ineffective coping mechanisms trying to deal with his grief.

can you go a bit more into detail? i feel like your idea on what this game's about may be a good demonstration to blossom

[Alexios]

Messaggio originale di Brady Banana:

can you go a bit more into detail? i feel like your idea on what this game's about may be a good demonstration to blossom

I just don't think that the game's main intention is for us to empathize with Sunny and Basil especially with the extreme methods of their actions, which imo is ridiculous to fathom for most normal people like us. The game doesn't even allow this to happen with Kel and co. wherein they only accepted Sunny in his "dreams" (the one in the stage area where you put the sheet music), but they would never know the truth until the few minutes in the game.

Worse (for the empathy case) is we don't get to see their reaction in the true ending, which I believe is a decision made because their thoughts and reactions at that time are irrelevant. Basil even makes excuses like "something" might have pushed Mari to her death which could've been made as defense that the tragedy was all but an accident. But I digress. Because, at the end of the game, thinking about that is also irrelevant. Even what the player feels about both of them is irrelevant.

Yes, we can feel guilty, depressed like they do, but we don't have to. Even when Sunny saved Basil, it was not made obvious at all that the decision was because he empathized with him. Because what's more important is when they finally decided to own the tragedy, let everything out, and not cope the way they used to. Sure, it is possible that their friendship will never be the same as before, but the game tells us that being honest about it all will always be the right direction for all of them (especially Sunny and Basil) moving forward. This is more noticeable when Sunny (and Basil) finally decide to tell the truth in front of their friends, they're more of at peace when this should be horror news for Kel, Hero, and Aubrey. However, it's easy to think of this as a good note since everything will not be possible if not also for the other three and the presentation that they're all good people although that's a discussion for another topic.

[The Milk Man]

Messaggio originale di nofnx:

Messaggio originale di Brady Banana:

can you go a bit more into detail? i feel like your idea on what this game's about may be a good demonstration to blossom

I just don't think that the game's main intention is for us to empathize with Sunny and Basil especially with the extreme methods of their actions, which imo is ridiculous to fathom for most normal people like us. The game doesn't even allow this to happen with Kel and co. wherein they only accepted Sunny in his "dreams" (the one in the stage area where you put the sheet music), but they would never know the truth until the few minutes in the game.

Worse (for the empathy case) is we don't get to see their reaction in the true ending, which I believe is a decision made because their thoughts and reactions at that time are irrelevant. Basil even makes excuses like "something" might have pushed Mari to her death which could've been made as defense that the tragedy was all but an accident. But I digress. Because, at the end of the game, thinking about that is also irrelevant. Even what the player feels about both of them is irrelevant.

Yes, we can feel guilty, depressed like they do, but we don't have to. Even when Sunny saved Basil, it was not made obvious at all that the decision was because he empathized with him. Because what's more important is when they finally decided to own the tragedy, let everything out, and not cope the way they used to. Sure, it is possible that their friendship will never be the same as before, but the game tells us that being honest about it all will always be the right direction for all of them (especially Sunny and Basil) moving forward. This is more noticeable when Sunny (and Basil) finally decide to tell the truth in front of their friends, they're more of at peace when this should be horror news for Kel, Hero, and Aubrey. However, it's easy to think of this as a good note since everything will not be possible if not also for the other three and the presentation that they're all good people although that's a discussion for another topic.

i never thought about it that way. that's a pretty good explanation. i still believe empathy was still an element of it since most of the horror aspect of it seems to rely on it, but i see how it's more about forgiving yourself than about empathy

[kgptzac]

Messaggio originale di nofnx:

I just don't think that the game's main intention is for us to empathize with Sunny and Basil especially with the extreme methods of their actions, which imo is ridiculous to fathom for most normal people like us.

The game very much want us to empathize with Sunny, and it is why it tells us the truth in the most roundabout way and only revealing it near the very end. The distinction here is that the game doesn't force feed the notion down our throats that Sunny and Basil are ought to be forgiven for their past actions.

The way I look at it is that, it's easier to empathize with Kel, Hero, and Aubrey. Given the truth, it's much harder to empathize with Sunny and Basil, and this is the reason why the player is given the perspective of Sunny, and this is the reason why Omori is such a compelling story.

[Alexios]

Messaggio originale di Brady Banana:

i never thought about it that way. that's a pretty good explanation. i still believe empathy was still an element of it since most of the horror aspect of it seems to rely on it, but i see how it's more about forgiving yourself than about empathy

To be clear here, I only meant that empathy wasn't really a main takeaway for me in the end. I am also not denying that there is no "empathy" involved when it is shown in other parts in the game. Yeah people can also interpret it as forgiveness, and that's after they recognized that they should just own up to it and be honest to their friends.

Messaggio originale di kgptzac:

The game very much want us to empathize with Sunny, and it is why it tells us the truth in the most roundabout way and only revealing it near the very end. The distinction here is that the game doesn't force feed the notion down our throats that Sunny and Basil are ought to be forgiven for their past actions.

The way I look at it is that, it's easier to empathize with Kel, Hero, and Aubrey. Given the truth, it's much harder to empathize with Sunny and Basil, and this is the reason why the player is given the perspective of Sunny, and this is the reason why Omori is such a compelling story.

Your two paragraphs contradict each other. If it's hard to empathize for Sunny and Basil, then maybe the game doesn't need us to empathize for them after all. It would be hard for me and many to empathize someone who dwells in a dream world, much more so to someone who just killed their loved ones not just once, but twice (especially when the second one was intentional). In fact, an important emotion in this tragedy is guilt, and I mean true guilt for a heinous crime where the majority of players won't even share. That's why I also said in the full text you quoted that it is ridiculous for us to try to fathom their thoughts and feelings and the only way to fully understand it is if we experienced the tragedy for ourselves.

As I said earlier, Kel, Hero, and Aubrey don't even get the chance to display the required empathy in the real world, so there is already a disconnect from them to the player. Even the player is kept in the dark for some time; e.g. I thought that Basil IRL was a creep because he was overly anxious to everyone, specifically to Sunny in the beginning.

However, one thing is easier to understand which I also think was the main point of the story: we can all agree that their coping mechanisms were too unhealthy for their friendship and just being honest to themselves and their friends was finally a breath of fresh air regardless of the new consequences they may face. Again, we can feel sadness, guilt, regret, etc. Hell, even most of us would also feel at peace like Sunny did in the good ending. But if others won't get it, especially the dark parts, then it's fine and they don't have to.

[kgptzac]

Empathy is not sympathy or compassion. It does not require acceptance or internalization of the experience that is shown to us. It really isn't that weird trying to fathom the unusual minds, as there are occupations such as psychologists and psychiatrists. Tho I suppose that is beside the points; as you realized the True End is not a happy ending, and Sunny and Basil confessing to their friends was the best course of action, you already empathized with these two characters the way the game intended.

[Spark7979]

Messaggio originale di blossom:

People should be warned that this game has no moral and no point, that the main character killed his sister and is not punished in any way. There is no theme, just nothing. It's an evil story.

Dumbest takeaway ever. This entire game is about Sunny suffering from extreme guilt and how he copes with it. That's his punishment, along with losing his borderline fairytale childhood he coveted so dearly. It's not as if he WANTED to kill his sister either. Just as Aubrey made a rash decision to push Basil into a lake, Sunny made a rash decision to push Mari down a flight of stairs, the difference being one scenario is a lot a more deadly than the other. Sunny and Basil suffered dearly for their mistakes; they may not have been conventionally punished but they were punished nonetheless. I do emphasise with Sunny, the emotional strain he was under from all that practicing and the way he chose to vent it. His perfectionist sister pushed him, her vanity blinded her from seeing how much he was struggling and she paid the ultimate price. Not saying she deserved it, but a lot of Omori could've been avoided if the characters just acted more sensibly.

[plznostep]

I really like how Omori show's a lot of characters in similar situations to Sunny. You got Aubrey pushing Basil in the lake since she thought he was erasing all memories of Mari and their childhood. This act could of killed Basil, but like Sunny it wasn't intentional at all. Hero lashed out Kel for trying to comfort him. Kel was probably quite frustrated that he had to deal with the loss of Mari without Hero being in his life, it was like he lost them both that day. So when Hero lashed out, I bet it made the death of Mari even worse. This is quite a lot like how Sunny treated Basil after the incident, with Basil having to cope on his own for 4 years. And Kel didn't really do something bad, but he didn't really try and emphasise on Aubrey's part of the story which made him more view Aubrey as the villain, a lot like how Sunny views himself. Even Mari had her flaws, pushing Sunny to her perfectionist standards which ultimately lead to Sunny's emotional outburst and her death. I think that displaying all the characters as flawed makes them all much easier to emphasise with, especially Sunny as they are all actions linked to him.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

Kel never going to meet Sunny even tho he's right next door. Not as bad, but you could add that. Yeah he never listened to Aubrey too.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

"what kind of f'd up **** you'd have to have done in your life to empathize with its characters"

Most people have done smth they terribly regret in one way or another. Ya consider yourself a saint?
There are some people who think they're always correct. If they ever do something as horrible like Sunny did, they'll then turn around and feel like they did nothing wrong. No remorse. "Oh I didn't do anything like Omori did! Oh that one thing? That wasn't as bad! Or it wasn't my fault! Or I was completely justified!"

[oran]

alien moment