(spolier)

[culpinha]

Did you forgive Sunny?

I'm kinda struggling with since i finished the game and i didn't answer this one yet.

[Siegge]

Eventually people will forgive Sunny given enough time, but it's up to you whether you forgive Sunny or not. I like how we don't see his friends reactions after the confession so we are left to interpret the ending on our own.

[DR. DEADHEAD]

It's a bit hard to say. I myself don't feel strongly about the situation since I can't relate to it at all, though if I really try to put myself in everyone's shoes I'd definitely be cold towards him for a while, but forgive over time.
I will say I didn't finish the game hating or even disliking Sunny. What he did was still wrong on all accounts but I found his resolve and courage to put aside his own comfort for his friends' sake to be very admirable.

[culpinha]

Originally posted by DO-CTOR:

It's a bit hard to say. I myself don't feel strongly about the situation since I can't relate to it at all, though if I really try to put myself in everyone's shoes I'd definitely be cold towards him for a while, but forgive over time.
I will say I didn't finish the game hating or even disliking Sunny. What he did was still wrong on all accounts but I found his resolve and courage to put aside his own comfort for his friends' sake to be very admirable.

I do agree with you and that's what makes me think "yeah, it's all right. I forgive you Sunny." but then right away the scene of Mari comes up to my mind and i'm just trembling, hating the way both kids treated her. Using your words, putting myself in the gang's shoes, i loved Mari and this was such a disrespectful act. What happened in the stairs was an accident and i think we can easily forgive that because wasn't their intention but this disrespect is what i'm struggling with.

[Sailor Paladin]

Originally posted by culpinha:

Did you forgive Sunny?

I'm kinda struggling with since i finished the game and i didn't answer this one yet.

No.

As far as I'm concerned, Sunny is absolutely beyond redemption. Beyond forgiveness. Beyond mercy. Everything Omori says in the final confrontation is the honest truth. I'm so disgusted, frankly, that I'm one of those people who want the 'bad ending' to be the cannon one. Not a joke.

The part where he actually kills his sister I can understand and forgive, to a point. He acts without thinking. His intention isn't to kill. At least, I don't thing so.

It's tough, but... after that happened, he should've faced the consequences, whatever those might be.

But then he makes a conscious decision to hide his crime. And to do so, he defiles the memory of the sister he just killed. If he tried to make it look like an accident - maybe I would consider forgiving him.
But that's not what he does.

HOWEVER, that's my opinion. We're talking about morality here, and objective morality doesn't exist. So I can see how some people might forgive what he's done, and that doesn't necessarily make them strictly wrong.

Not me, however. I would never. Ever. Let something like that go. The kid can cure cancer, and I'd still wish for him to burn.

P.S. On an unrelated note: this game is really bloody good and the fact that we're having this discussion right now is a testament to that.

[Sand]

Yes, he made a conscious choice to make it look like a suicide, but he was scared. And you can tell how much he regrets it and hates himself for it. In the description for the photos about Mari's death, it describes him calling out to her. So he definitely regrets it.
And when it comes down to it, if you kill your sister, how will things go for you? No body will ever look at you the same way they did before. Your own parents might hate you. Thats what he was scared about. And he was scared about facing the truth of what he had done. I think in the good ending, when he finally decides to confess, that on its own is a huge step forward. Because he finally gathers the strength and courage- knowing the consequences that will come with admitting to the murder- to tell them about what he has done. You say he defiles her memory, which i agree with. But at the end, he confesses to the crime. He lets the truth about her be know.

[squibbles!]

The fact that Sunny eventually goes through that whole internal struggle, and stops repressing his past so he can own up to it is what tells me he's no doubt redeemable. Manslaughter shouldn't just be glanced over or unpunished, obviously, but I don't think Sunny should be viewed as an unforgivable murderer his whole life. One misdeed, no matter how bad, doesn't make a bad person. It's the repeated misdeeds, and refusal to change for the better that makes one. and Sunny doesn't fit into either description as far as I'm aware, assuming you go for the good ending.

[culpinha]

Needless to say that you all helped me to find a way to answer that question. Good points and when it comes to what he did and what we can do about all that (putting ourselves in everyone's shoes), so as Karl's said, even though he defiled her memory Sunny doesn't deserve to be viewed as murderer. Omori's words at the end of the game did represent part of me and i can't deny that but rethinking about it all and listening to this amazing playlist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw-2e3T03Co&ab_channel=pengweng) for Mari, for Basil and of course for Sunny, who has been haunted since that day, i'll set up it.

Thank you all guys <3

[Sailor Paladin]

Alright, using the spoiler thing is pointless at this point, and is... probably just annoying, so I won't bother.

Originally posted by SandwichCat:

he was scared.
(...)
if you kill your sister, how will things go for you? No body will ever look at you the same way they did before. Your own parents might hate you. Thats what he was scared about.

I understand that. That's not an excuse, however. That's a motive.

However,

Originally posted by SandwichCat:

you can tell how much he regrets it and hates himself for it.

is a fair point.

Same goes for

Originally posted by karl's beard:

The fact that Sunny eventually goes through that whole internal struggle, and stops repressing his past so he can own up to it is what tells me he's no doubt redeemable.

But I still believe that he is beyond redemption.

At the end we're witnessing a moment of clarity. He stopped repressing the past, he gathered enough inner strength to confess (to his friends, at the very least). And how long will that last?

I am a firm believer that there are things you can't go back from. This is one of them.

Apparently, he loved Mari. He really, really loved Mari. And yet he was able to hurt her. Physically. Even if he didn't mean to kill her, he still pushed her. Hard. That's one.

And then didn't think twice before destroying her legacy for personal gain. That's two.

That's ALARMING. Most people aren't even capable of doing what he's done.
...at least, I don't think so.

In any case, in the 'True Ending', I think that Sunny himself in that moment believes that he can be a good person.
And I think that he is wrong. I think that if he were to end up in a similar situation in the future, he would still do the exact same thing. Destroy everything in his path for personal gain, no matter how dear and precious (he thinks) it is to him.

... but, again, I am a cynical piece of ♥♥♥♥, who is used to seeing the worst in people.

You can believe in Sunny. That's absolutely fine. That's probably the healthier attitude.

P.S. But, just so we're clear: self-loathing and regret do not automatically mean that you're not going to do the 'bad thing' ever again. You can hate yourself, but still do the thing that you hate yourself for. In fact, that's... pretty common...

[lessthanoff]

I'll say I personally don't feel it's very important whether we, as an audience, forgive Sunny for what happened. Because, as DO-CTOR brought up in another post, the story is primarily about Sunny coming to terms with what he did, and hopefully being able to forgive himself. Not us.

We, as the audience, are not Sunny. We didn't experience everything he did. While I feel the game did an excellent job at giving us a mechanism to empathize with what he feels, there is only so far empathy for something that extreme can be given in a video game.

With that being said, the truth I think everyone will have to accept, and one of the things I think the game was trying to convey, was that none of us can be absolutely sure we wouldn't do the exact same thing. Because being moral and doing the right thing is easy when that morality isn't being challenged, especially to the extent that it was with Sunny and Basil. It's why I personally feel like Sunny and Basil were portrayed as such good and decent kids prior to the reveal, in order to show that the potential for wickedness and evil exists in all of us, no matter how good we may think we are.

Humans, underneath the sense of decency and goodness most of them have, are animals, and will do whatever they can to preserve themselves and those close to them, even if it's something truly horrific. It's instinct.

If Aubrey had actually killed Basil by pushing him into the lake (assuming we replaced Kel with Kim), and Sunny also drowned because Hero never showed up, I don't personally think it's a huge stretch to think that maybe Kim would try to do something similar in order to protect her best friend. Would that be a horrible thing to do? To me, yes.

But I feel like I would be a hypocrite to say that would make them beyond forgiveness, because I honestly have no idea what I would do in that situation. Of course, I would love to believe I would do the right thing, but I say that with extreme privilege, because I have never found myself in a position as horrible as that one.

There is also the fact that, even though Sunny was the one who killed Mari, it was actually Basil who came up with the idea to hang her, and was the one who did it, while Sunny stood in a daze and stared at the leaves of the tree, thinking the whole thing was a dream. But I think focusing too much on that is missing the forest for the trees, in terms of what the game is trying to tell us.

I felt hate for them when I knew the truth, just like they felt for themselves. But I reached the point where I can say that, yes, I forgive them.

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Sailor Paladin:

Originally posted by culpinha:

Did you forgive Sunny?

I'm kinda struggling with since i finished the game and i didn't answer this one yet.

No.

As far as I'm concerned, Sunny is absolutely beyond redemption. Beyond forgiveness. Beyond mercy. Everything Omori says in the final confrontation is the honest truth. I'm so disgusted, frankly, that I'm one of those people who want the 'bad ending' to be the cannon one. Not a joke.

The part where he actually kills his sister I can understand and forgive, to a point. He acts without thinking. His intention isn't to kill. At least, I don't thing so.

It's tough, but... after that happened, he should've faced the consequences, whatever those might be.

But then he makes a conscious decision to hide his crime. And to do so, he defiles the memory of the sister he just killed. If he tried to make it look like an accident - maybe I would consider forgiving him.
But that's not what he does.

HOWEVER, that's my opinion. We're talking about morality here, and objective morality doesn't exist. So I can see how some people might forgive what he's done, and that doesn't necessarily make them strictly wrong.

Not me, however. I would never. Ever. Let something like that go. The kid can cure cancer, and I'd still wish for him to burn.

P.S. On an unrelated note: this game is really bloody good and the fact that we're having this discussion right now is a testament to that.

Suppose you believe datamined storylines are real. In that case, if you read the text that was supposed to be shown in the truth photo album, you will see that after Sunny pushed Mari down the stairs, he fervently believed to be in a nightmare and kept hoping he would wake up and see Mari alive again. It is Basil who came up with the idea to hang Mari, and Sunny just blindly followed his instructions in a delirious state. Do what you will with this information.

[HolyThursdayBot]

Can anyone give more details as to whether we know how the accident happened? Was Sunny angry at Mari for some reason? It's hard for me to imagine accidentally whacking someone with a violin. Intent matters to me I guess.

[Pckables]

Originally posted by HolyThursdayBot:

Can anyone give more details as to whether we know how the accident happened? Was Sunny angry at Mari for some reason? It's hard for me to imagine accidentally whacking someone with a violin. Intent matters to me I guess.

Sunny didn't hit her with the violin, he accidentally pushed Mari when trying to run away from her. She was scolding Sunny for throwing the violin down the stairs. (The reason for Sunny destroying the violin is hidden in the game's files: He felt like he wasn't good enough to play next to Mari)
Thats also the reason for all the hands in Sunny's nightmares. His hand pushed her down the stairs.

[French J. Fry]

Originally posted by author:

Suppose you believe datamined storylines are real. In that case, if you read the text that was supposed to be shown in the truth photo album, you will see that after Sunny pushed Mari down the stairs, he fervently believed to be in a nightmare and kept hoping he would wake up and see Mari alive again. It is Basil who came up with the idea to hang Mari, and Sunny just blindly followed his instructions in a delirious state. Do what you will with this information.

Accordingly with that text its seems he was in a dissociative state. Also maybe Basil was under influence of his Something too, since he also have one.

[Sailor Paladin]

Originally posted by French J. Fry:

Accordingly with that text its seems he was in a dissociative state. Also maybe Basil was under influence of his Something too, since he also have one.

... alright, stop.
Here I would like to make a stand and strongly disagree with this interpretation. 'Something' is symbolism.
There's no 'something' in reality. There are two boys with very, very sick minds. The discussion here is whether or not you can justify their actions in the moment of great distress.

I mean... I guess you can interpret it this way. I... guess you can assume that 'somethings' really exist, but that kind of kills the discussion, in my opinion. "Supernatural forces made them do it" is just not something I can work with.

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Sailor Paladin:

Originally posted by French J. Fry:

Accordingly with that text its seems he was in a dissociative state. Also maybe Basil was under influence of his Something too, since he also have one.

... alright, stop.
Here I would like to make a stand and strongly disagree with this interpretation. 'Something' is symbolism.
There's no 'something' in reality. There are two boys with very, very sick minds. The discussion here is whether or not you can justify their actions in the moment of great distress.

I mean... I guess you can interpret it this way. I... guess you can assume that 'somethings' really exist, but that kind of kills the discussion, in my opinion. "Supernatural forces made them do it" is just not something I can work with.

Yeah, he meant he was under the influence of his trauma, since Something represents their worst fears. Sunny was traumatized by seeing Mari's eye look at him. Basil was traumatized because he saw Sunny, who he might have feelings for, just commit a horrendous act (you can still see him in denial over what happened nearly 4 years later). None of their SOMETHINGs exist, they're just their hallucinations from the trauma they've suffered.

That's not what was discussed though, if I'm not mistaken. What was at heart of the subject is whether or not the player can forgive them. Which I'm rather inclined to do because of the datamined evidence.