[SPOILER] About the main plot twist

[Double-D]

SPOILER ALERT!!!




So, as it turned out, Sunny accidentally killed Mari. And he with the help of Basil managed to cover his tracks on that. And that's kinda stupid.
Don't get me wrong - I like the writing in the game. Problem is, as usual for the genre, everything is fine and dandy when plot builds suspence. When time comes for a big reveal - the story faceplants in a very awkward way. So, you mean to tell me, that a 12-years-old killed his sister by accident (with a 12-years-old eyewitness, no less), then same 12-years-old along with said eyewitness carried the dead body to the woods so they could hang that body on a tree branch and makes it all look like a suicide? For real? And then they have kept it all a secret for 4 years? Seriously? 12-years-old making the noose for his still warm dead sister? Is this real life?
What I'm saying - it is beyond any suspicion of disbelief. The plot was actually good when it was all vague - we knew something went very wrong in the Sunny's past, we knew Mari died and Basil and Sunny probably had something to do with that. And it was fine for the story purpose. What we've been told in the end is that the whole game we were playing as an irredeemable psychopath in a quest to find his extreme doormat flowerboy friend. The good ending looks even more ridiculous: sure, I caused my sister death, ruined my family, destroyed my friends, lied about it the whole time - but now it's A-Okay, I've beaten "The Dark Entity(c)" so now we can hold hands and move on.
I'm not saying the game is bad or something. I'm just saying that big reveal is overcomplicated and is trying way to hard. Simple lie in a vain of "She tripped and fell, I didn't have anything to do with that, right Basil?" would be more than enough. There's a line between "a scared kid in denial" and "a scared kid hanging a corpse of a close relative so that noone knows that he broke said relative neck", you know.

[Double-D]

@Svebe

"honestly, it does feel plausible. basil was the one to come up with the plan, after all: sunny was, quite literally, "just following orders" (5th photo)[static.wikia.nocookie.net]. sunny remembers "a voice telling him to walk". this just shows that he was in such a bad state he couldn't even recognize the person that ordered him to move mari."

Mean no offence, but we can do this all day. You find it plausible, I don't. And, again, no offence, but datamining is not a good way ot make sence of what happenes in a game. If some content was cut - that's probably 'cause the creator felt it could be cut. The game showed only what it showed, and making arguments based on what's in the game's folder is a slippery path.

"as for basil? he is an only child and wrote in the photo album that he wished he had a sibling. this isn't definitive proof, but it could hint at some deeper problems, and also brings the staged suicide plan back into the rank of "plausible""

I don't really see how being a single child makes one think about stage suicide plans. Only thing it can possibly explain is his unhealthy obsession with Sunny.

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@Sir Protagonist

"As a kid, I think that even in that high stress situation, I can think that leaving the body inside the house is a really really bad idea. Kids may look for the simple plan to work, but even then it has to be a plan that has a chance to work. Maybe I wouldn't be able to get as far as to think that lying and saying she fell down the stairs wont work. (Because if you fell down, you realise it quicker than if you were pushed. You would be able to either grab the handrails, or at least angle your head up to not hit the stairs itself. Compared to being pushed where you don't have as much of a chance since you can't feel your body give way before the fall and your back is to the stairs which is much harder to save as well as more vulnerable.) but if I wasn't telling the truth about the death anyway, the body has to not be inside. Inside means people find it quick, people ask questions quick, it creates chaos quick. Hide it in the woods. Pretend you dont know anything. Wait and hope for best."

Well, you think you could come up with a plan like this as a kid, I think I couldn't. Who's more right?
Also, still can't see why "falling down" the stairs should look different from "being pushed down the stairs", especially in Mari's case, since she was walking with a limp due to knee trauma.
And yeah, dead body hanging on a tree is way less suspicious than a body of a clumsy girl with broken neck laying at the bottom of a staris.

"Either way I think the bigger plot hole is on the true route. Why would Sunny ever open the front door? Why start that day? I know its because god the player said so, but if the player wasn't there Sunny doesnt have any reason to open the door."

Said it before - hikkikomori route as well as neutral ending route makes the story far more consistent.

"Major reason why I can't believe the parents knew is because if they did, they would also have to know how much sorrow Basil and/or at least Sunny would be going through. Would be pretty bad parents to know it and just never talk to Sunny about it, or got professional help, especially during the years of shutting himself in."

Um, excuse me? Sorrow? Your kid just manslaughtered your other kid, and then his weird flowerboy friend came up with a plan of posing the killed kid as a suicide victim. Would you really care about how sad they feel about all that? I think people get institutionalized for less.

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Double-D:

@Svebe

"honestly, it does feel plausible. basil was the one to come up with the plan, after all: sunny was, quite literally, "just following orders" (5th photo)[static.wikia.nocookie.net]. sunny remembers "a voice telling him to walk". this just shows that he was in such a bad state he couldn't even recognize the person that ordered him to move mari."

Mean no offence, but we can do this all day. You find it plausible, I don't. And, again, no offence, but datamining is not a good way ot make sence of what happenes in a game. If some content was cut - that's probably 'cause the creator felt it could be cut. The game showed only what it showed, and making arguments based on what's in the game's folder is a slippery path.

"as for basil? he is an only child and wrote in the photo album that he wished he had a sibling. this isn't definitive proof, but it could hint at some deeper problems, and also brings the staged suicide plan back into the rank of "plausible""

I don't really see how being a single child makes one think about stage suicide plans. Only thing it can possibly explain is his unhealthy obsession with Sunny.

i don't really understand why you're just rejecting the datamined photo descriptions? yes it could be cut, but reading the text as is does give an idea of what the characters felt.

and, once again, the two children were panicking, i don't really think anyone would have come up with a reasonable solution right there

[Sir Protagonist]

Well falling and pushing are different. Much different.
Falling you can feel that you are going to, about quarter of a second before you actually do. You can feel your foot/knee/whatever give way. Reaction time of a human is about .25 seconds, so you know you're falling by the time you actually do start. You would have enough time to cling onto something, made much easier by facing down the stairs because you can put your arms out, or latch onto the railings on the side. Chance of survival goes up by a ton.

Compared to being pushed, where you dont get that bonus time for your brain to figure out you're falling. Your body is already halfway to the stair before you figure out whats going on unless you were expecting to be pushed. You're facing backwards, so the natural instinct when falling facing forwards to put your hands out to land on them and protect the head can't work since they're reaching onto nothing. Best chance is to try and latch onto the railings, which is harder to see because depending on how far you've gone they're probably not in vision. Other way out is to try and lean forward into the air risking more damage to the spine. Yeah theres a big difference. Again don't think Sunny would have thought it through to that point, saying that she fell and died would have been more suspicious upon no inspection than saying she hanged herself with no inspection.

Again I feel even kids could realise how ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ terrible a plan of "oh lets just leave the body there" is, even if it really is the best option there. Leaving it there just means you're staring at it, worrying about it. Leaving it there means you have to come up with a story when people start asking questions. Leaving it there means YOU have to be the one who "discovers" the body, answer all the questions about what happened, and deal with the situation over a much longer time than just saying "oh she hanged herself" or in my example "...iunno"


Agreed though on the hikkikomori route. Whilst I think the story is better during the true route, omori feels like its the only one that could actually occur without the players intervention.

Well if I was some random, no I wouldn't care as much about how sad they felt. But as a parent, if I cared about my children, and I didn't want the one living one to actually hang themselves (which ACTUALLY HAPPENS during two of the endings. Yeah not hanging but still suicide), yeah I would actually talk to them about it. Would hurt a lot knowing what they did, but they would still be my child and I wouldn't want them to suffer endlessly through life because of it.

[Double-D]

"i don't really understand why you're just rejecting the datamined photo descriptions? yes it could be cut, but reading the text as is does give an idea of what the characters felt."

Because it's technically not in the game. The author didn't want us to see it therefore they didn't put it in the game properly.
If you need to datamine the game to understand its story - then it has problems. Frankly, it's not the case.

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Double-D:

"i don't really understand why you're just rejecting the datamined photo descriptions? yes it could be cut, but reading the text as is does give an idea of what the characters felt."

Because it's technically not in the game. The author didn't want us to see it therefore they didn't put it in the game properly.
If you need to datamine the game to understand its story - then it has problems. Frankly, it's not the case.

well, you could also say that the hikikomori story and endings are technically not canon because the only real route is the true ending, or that hero's real name is not actually henry because that information is only accessible through datamining.

you can understand the story perfectly well without datamining. it just gives you another perspective on the events

[Double-D]

Originally posted by Sbeve:

Originally posted by Double-D:

"i don't really understand why you're just rejecting the datamined photo descriptions? yes it could be cut, but reading the text as is does give an idea of what the characters felt."

Because it's technically not in the game. The author didn't want us to see it therefore they didn't put it in the game properly.
If you need to datamine the game to understand its story - then it has problems. Frankly, it's not the case.

well, you could also say that the hikikomori story and endings are technically not canon because the only real route is the true ending, or that hero's real name is not actually henry because that information is only accessible through datamining.

you can understand the story perfectly well without datamining. it just gives you another perspective on the events

Nope. Hikki route is fully accessible without any digging into game files.
Also - Henry? For real? Now, how am I supposed to know that if a game only addresses him by his nickname (customizable, no less)? Through datamining? What if I can't or don't feel like? Am I suddenly cut away from pieces of a story? What if Omocat will pronounce all of this a trash-file leftovers? Will it be considered important then? What if I refused to use default name and renamed Sunny into Gonard - is that canon?

Don't get me wrong, digging through the supplementary materials is fun. Interpret the story with using something that is not a part of that story does not seem to be a correct way.

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Double-D:

Originally posted by Sbeve:

well, you could also say that the hikikomori story and endings are technically not canon because the only real route is the true ending, or that hero's real name is not actually henry because that information is only accessible through datamining.

you can understand the story perfectly well without datamining. it just gives you another perspective on the events

Nope. Hikki route is fully accessible without any digging into game files.
Also - Henry? For real? Now, how am I supposed to know that if a game only addresses him by his nickname (customizable, no less)? Through datamining? What if I can't or don't feel like? Am I suddenly cut away from pieces of a story? What if Omocat will pronounce all of this a trash-file leftovers? Will it be considered important then? What if I refused to use default name and renamed Sunny into Gonard - is that canon?

Don't get me wrong, digging through the supplementary materials is fun. Interpret the story with using something that is not a part of that story does not seem to be a correct way.

why not? the information is there, it just takes more effort to get to it. some games deliberately make datamining the only way of progressing through the game. what about the WTF value? are its events not canon because you have a chance of literally never seeing them in the game, no matter how much you replay omori?

[Double-D]

"why not? the information is there, it just takes more effort to get to it. some games deliberately make datamining the only way of progressing through the game. what about the WTF value? are its events not canon because you have a chance of literally never seeing them in the game, no matter how much you replay omori?"

Because Omocat or whoever was the decision-maker deliberately chose to not show this info in their game. We are literally not supposed to see this. I'm pretty sure there were early builds with different setup and, who knows, different story. Chances are there are some leftovers of them in the game too. Shall we attach them as well? Why not go further and talk about original Omori comic? Do you remember the tissues in the White Space? In the comic they were used for watching porn. Why don't we take this into discussion? Imagine how interesting Sunny or Henry or Gonard or whatever his name is would become!

[Sbeve]

Originally posted by Double-D:

"why not? the information is there, it just takes more effort to get to it. some games deliberately make datamining the only way of progressing through the game. what about the WTF value? are its events not canon because you have a chance of literally never seeing them in the game, no matter how much you replay omori?"

Because Omocat or whoever was the decision-maker deliberately chose to not show this info in their game. We are literally not supposed to see this. I'm pretty sure there were early builds with different setup and, who knows, different story. Chances are there are some leftovers of them in the game too. Shall we attach them as well? Why not go further and talk about original Omori comic? Do you remember the tissues in the White Space? In the comic they were used for watching porn. Why don't we take this into discussion? Imagine how interesting Sunny or Henry or Gonard or whatever his name is would become!

I'll stop answering this conversation because I feel that everything that could be said, has been said and I'm pretty sure the discussion has strayed way off topic, where the only thing that's discussed is the legitimacy of datamined information.

If you want to discuss Sunny watching porn with his tissue box be my guest.

You think the plot twist is bad because it's apparently unrealistic to stage a murder as a suicide by hanging, I think the plot twist is good because I know that the two boys were distraught, (whether or not you base yourself on the datamined book or not) and came up with a pretty ugly solution to help Sunny almost get off the hook. Jesus Christ it can't be that hard to pick up a body when your adrenaline levels are through the roof (and when someone else helps you carry the body, too). I'd say the book literally says Sunny noticed that Mari's body was significantly lighter than expected, but you wouldn't take that as an answer because you firmly believe the plot is bad and nothing can change your opinion.

[Double-D]

Originally posted by Sbeve:

Originally posted by Double-D:

"why not? the information is there, it just takes more effort to get to it. some games deliberately make datamining the only way of progressing through the game. what about the WTF value? are its events not canon because you have a chance of literally never seeing them in the game, no matter how much you replay omori?"

Because Omocat or whoever was the decision-maker deliberately chose to not show this info in their game. We are literally not supposed to see this. I'm pretty sure there were early builds with different setup and, who knows, different story. Chances are there are some leftovers of them in the game too. Shall we attach them as well? Why not go further and talk about original Omori comic? Do you remember the tissues in the White Space? In the comic they were used for watching porn. Why don't we take this into discussion? Imagine how interesting Sunny or Henry or Gonard or whatever his name is would become!

I'll stop answering this conversation because I feel that everything that could be said, has been said and I'm pretty sure the discussion has strayed way off topic, where the only thing that's discussed is the legitimacy of datamined information.

If you want to discuss Sunny watching porn with his tissue box be my guest.

You think the plot twist is bad because it's apparently unrealistic to stage a murder as a suicide by hanging, I think the plot twist is good because I know that the two boys were distraught, (whether or not you base yourself on the datamined book or not) and came up with a pretty ugly solution to help Sunny almost get off the hook. Jesus Christ it can't be that hard to pick up a body when your adrenaline levels are through the roof (and when someone else helps you carry the body, too). I'd say the book literally says Sunny noticed that Mari's body was significantly lighter than expected, but you wouldn't take that as an answer because you firmly believe the plot is bad and nothing can change your opinion.

We came to this conclusion about a dozen messages back. You think that plot twist is cleverly written and totally believable, I say - it's an attempt to shock just for the sake of it, just because the plot needed something dark to happen.
You obviously don't see my arguments as valid, and, not gonna lie, I don't see yours as valid either.
So who is more right again?
And yeah, remark about porn. You don't want to discuss that. Okay. I don't want either. Still, how an original comic is different from the assets cut out of the game? All of them are by the same authors, all of them are related to the story and, the most important, all of them are not in the game.
Peace.

[Sidnaire]

I was kinda hoping Basil killed Mary because he was a yandere wanting all Sunny's attention for himself, and that would be shoking twist but it's turned out very childish and boring. No idea why this game has the "deep plot" and "horror" tags at all :( (bad english, sorry)

[lessthanoff]

@Sidnaire

Really? That would have been incredibly silly, in my opinion. I was kind of worried it would also turn out that way, and I'm personally glad it didn't. Not sure how that would have ended up being deep or mature in any way (also, not entirely sure how you would have found it to be shocking if you were already wanting it to happen).

But I guess people are just into different things. No accounting for taste.

And your English is fine.

[Double-D]

Originally posted by Sidnaire:

I was kinda hoping Basil killed Mary because he was a yandere wanting all Sunny's attention for himself, and that would be shoking twist but it's turned out very childish and boring. No idea why this game has the "deep plot" and "horror" tags at all :( (bad english, sorry)

Gotta agree with lessthanoff here. I see your point, but that would be an edgelord-writing. Gentle and kind if slightly nurotic kid is one thing, but making him a straight up murderer would be a bad cliche.

[Manmade God]

Your eye does not pop out of your head when you are hung while dead. Mari had passed out and maybe stopped breathing temporarily, long enough to convince Basil and Sunny she was dead. Then Basil hung her, Sunny looks back, sees her eye and deep in his soul knows that must mean something. Hence something. Hence Basil apologizing CONSTANTLY (he did not push her down the stairs, why would he be so traumatized over a plan he cooked up to help a friend?) Hence the heavier sense of guilt and weight to said guilt. Being stupid kids fighting got Mari hurt, being stupid humans trying to avoid dealing with their situation/ repercussions they made everything so much worse when the situation was savable. I have been pushing this theory on the reddit group too and it has gained some traction. Too many things makes sense with this reading. The only real loophole is that there was no police investigation but faraway town does not seem to have cops. The siren at the end is an ambulance. So idk. Not to mention Sunny's parents knew and could have done more to cover things up/ make sure Sunny did not get in trouble as they could not lose BOTH children.

[Manmade God]

So while that doesn't fit your edgelord, yandere wishes because he didn't know, at least you get half of what you wanted! Basil probably did kill Mari! Just not on purpose and defo not in some yandere edgelord "I must have Sunny!" way.