[SPOILER] About the main plot twist

[Double-D]

SPOILER ALERT!!!




So, as it turned out, Sunny accidentally killed Mari. And he with the help of Basil managed to cover his tracks on that. And that's kinda stupid.
Don't get me wrong - I like the writing in the game. Problem is, as usual for the genre, everything is fine and dandy when plot builds suspence. When time comes for a big reveal - the story faceplants in a very awkward way. So, you mean to tell me, that a 12-years-old killed his sister by accident (with a 12-years-old eyewitness, no less), then same 12-years-old along with said eyewitness carried the dead body to the woods so they could hang that body on a tree branch and makes it all look like a suicide? For real? And then they have kept it all a secret for 4 years? Seriously? 12-years-old making the noose for his still warm dead sister? Is this real life?
What I'm saying - it is beyond any suspicion of disbelief. The plot was actually good when it was all vague - we knew something went very wrong in the Sunny's past, we knew Mari died and Basil and Sunny probably had something to do with that. And it was fine for the story purpose. What we've been told in the end is that the whole game we were playing as an irredeemable psychopath in a quest to find his extreme doormat flowerboy friend. The good ending looks even more ridiculous: sure, I caused my sister death, ruined my family, destroyed my friends, lied about it the whole time - but now it's A-Okay, I've beaten "The Dark Entity(c)" so now we can hold hands and move on.
I'm not saying the game is bad or something. I'm just saying that big reveal is overcomplicated and is trying way to hard. Simple lie in a vain of "She tripped and fell, I didn't have anything to do with that, right Basil?" would be more than enough. There's a line between "a scared kid in denial" and "a scared kid hanging a corpse of a close relative so that noone knows that he broke said relative neck", you know.

[lessthanoff]

@Shinji

Ah, hmm... I guess I didn't understand what you were asking. Would you mind giving me an example of a mental issue you thought was brought up and then brushed off later with the plot twist?

[DR. DEADHEAD]

Originally posted by Serathis:

I don't get why everyone interprets that as Dad knowing. Just about everything in headspace is projection. Dad disowning Sunny is Sunny blaming himself for destroying his family (since it's pretty evident his parents broke up because of Mari's death).

I took it this way as well. Not to say the father couldn't have known, it's just also possible that while he did cut the tree down in frustration and left due to being overwhelmed by Mari's death he didn't know Sunny caused it (Maybe the mother kept it from him because she was also scared how he'd take it?).
Either way I think that scene in headspace was an exaggeration of some kind.

[srd_27]

Originally posted by Double-D:

Originally posted by srd_27:

12 year olds are not little kids, they aren't dumb. There are plenty of murder or other serious criminal cases done by prepubescent kids or teens.

Yes. There are. Usually such kids were troubled way before they actually commited their crime. On the other hand we have Sunny (plays violin, likes videogames, has loving family and friends) and Basil (polite to ridiculous level, has friends, enjoys gardening). These two killed someone by pure accident? Possible. These two made up a cover-up plan too morbid for an adult? Pretty stretched.

If Basil have seen any kinds of murder movies/books, the idea of framing a death as a suicide doesn't take a lot of creativity.
The fact that Basil came up with this idea might also imply that at one point, he already have thoughts of hanging himself as well.

I've read Detective Conan manga as a 10 year old, a comic that's commonly read by prepubescent kids. The murder crimes there are a lot more morbid than simply hanging a dead body.

Of course, if anyone is in Sunny's situation, it's a lot more likely that they'll just make a lie of "she fell down the stairs" instead of doing all this cover-up, but the story won't be fun that way. :p

[Double-D]

@srd_27

"The fact that Basil came up with this idea might also imply that at one point, he already have thoughts of hanging himself as well."

Honestly, there is something off about him. Starting with extremely sweet image and ending with his borderline obsession with Sunny. I'm not really surprised he came up with something like this, but making plans is one thing - performing an action is another.

"I've read Detective Conan manga as a 10 year old, a comic that's commonly read by prepubescent kids. The murder crimes there are a lot more morbid than simply hanging a dead body."

That's just a fiction! Kids love monsters, sure. Seeing one in actual life would probably make one run for their life. Same with actual dead body.

"Of course, if anyone is in Sunny's situation, it's a lot more likely that they'll just make a lie of "she fell down the stairs" instead of doing all this cover-up, but the story won't be fun that way. :p"

My point exactly.

[Pakdoc2]

Sunny and Basil seemed to be outliers in the group even before the reveal and after their guilt. You can tell Sunny has always been introverted and I'd assume Basil is similar given how much he relates to Sunny and how much the the rest of the group kinda just tags them both along the same way without directly interacting with them. Not saying everyone doesn't love each other in the friend group but Sunny and Basil were definitely not the loud and hyper kids. Where I'm going with this is to say that the hanging plot is some drastic change in their character isn't true in my eyes. I feel like you're attributing Kel's personality to Sunny and Basil when you call them cheerful kids who love to play all day. I'm definitely not saying you don't need to suspend disbelief but I do believe its not beyond that when you look at their dynamic in the span of the whole group.

[Double-D]

Originally posted by Pakdoc2:

Sunny and Basil seemed to be outliers in the group even before the reveal and after their guilt. You can tell Sunny has always been introverted and I'd assume Basil is similar given how much he relates to Sunny and how much the the rest of the group kinda just tags them both along the same way without directly interacting with them. Not saying everyone doesn't love each other in the friend group but Sunny and Basil were definitely not the loud and hyper kids. Where I'm going with this is to say that the hanging plot is some drastic change in their character isn't true in my eyes. I feel like you're attributing Kel's personality to Sunny and Basil when you call them cheerful kids who love to play all day. I'm definitely not saying you don't need to suspend disbelief but I do believe its not beyond that when you look at their dynamic in the span of the whole group.

Yes and No. Being shy and quite doesn't mean you have a bad heart or low empathy, right? My problem with the way game is telling its story is that both Sunny and Basil are pretty easily forgiven. Especially in good ending. Bonus scene, for example: Something behind Sunny's back fades away, same goes with Basil, they both smile as if saying "It's all over, we'll be Okay". Now, I understand they moved on finally, but... did they really struggled that bad for it?
Take Silent Hill 2 for example. The protagonist goes through the same journey basically. Only where he went to hell and back, Sunny just had a fun magic adventure in his head, hanged out with his besties in reality and in the end said something like: "Guys, Mari didn't kill herself, it was me. I kinda feel bad about it, are we cool now?" That would be okay if he just lied out of fear, impulsively, and then his lie kept eating him for all these years. What they did takes more than just an impulse. Therefore, his pain (if he actually is in some) would take much worse forms that one-eyed blob and a little background static.
In the final credits we see him driving away to his new home, with blue sky and all.
Now, we can speculate on what's actually happened between Sunny and his crew. We don't know how they reacted. Still, everything else in the game (music, imagery, bonus after credits scene, after credits title screen) gives pretty positive vibe.
Neutral ending, where Sunny just leaves, carrying his darkness with him makes much better story, since you can't start a new life just by saying so. Your mistakes will always haunt you, no matter what. You can cope with them, but you can't erase them out of existence. Still, the game obviously treats this ending as non-canonical.

[Pakdoc2]

Sorry I phrased that badly, I didn't mean to imply that their shyness was a sign of them having bad in them. My point was just directly in response to you talking about how drastic it is for them to turn to something so dramatic as if its out of character. I was just saying it wouldn't be far fetched for the least socialized kids to not understand what to do in a situation that requires outside help. One thing though, its kind of implied that Sunny goes through this cycle in his dreams regularly. That is to say he's constantly going through the same adventure in white space constantly. I don't know if that's confirmed but I recall it being referred to as a endless cycle somewhere towards the final part of deeper well. I'm assuming the cycle always starts with Basil going missing in his dreams and ends with him finding him again like he does in the hikkikomori route. You, as the player, break that cycle by actually confronting the truth for Sunny and helping him come to terms with the fact that he doesn't have to hate himself for it. I don't think it's fair to say he didn't suffer for it considering he spent 4 years as a shut in who hasn't interacted with pretty much anyone except his mother and imaginary friends. A life where you only live to sleep is not one I would consider happy. I can see how you as the player could see it like that but in terms of what he went through in the story he definitely went through his own hell, especially just being a kid. Also in terms of his physical manifestations going away in the end, I think the relief came from knowing he isn't lying to everyone anymore. He'll always probably feel guilt for Mari's death itself but he can at least rest knowing his friends know the truth about the circumstances, especially Hero who blamed himself for not seeing any signs of Mari being suicidal. I see where you're coming from with the differences in tone, but really I think that's just the game trying to strike a balance to stay entertaining to the player. Playing even the happy moments in the dreamworld feel hollow when you remember that everything is just false projections meant to stop Sunny from moving on.

[Umbra]

"In the final credits we see him driving away to his new home, with blue sky and all.
Now, we can speculate on what's actually happened between Sunny and his crew. We don't know how they reacted. Still, everything else in the game (music, imagery, bonus after credits scene, after credits title screen) gives pretty positive vibe."

To me, the positive atmosphere came from his decision to stop running away and to face the consequences, no matter what they may be. We never actually see how the friends react, so it's hard to say they just forgive him and Basil. If you think they did, it's totally up to you.

To me, it felt way more bittersweet than positive. Even though Sunny's friends love him, I cannot see them all taking the truth well and forgiving him right away. I can't see them forgiving him, or Basil, for a really long time actually. The positivity of the ending was more so celebrating that Sunny, after saving Basil from dying and not succumbing to the same urge, finally faces his fears and opens up. The fears he's confronted over the course of the game don't control him anymore, and he can finally start healing and move on from this whole situation. I'd say that is deserving of the sun shining down and the birds chirping, even if he loses his friends.

We don't know what happens after he opens up, because it really doesn't matter. The whole game was about whether Sunny would keep running away and pretending it never happened, or finally owning up to his mistakes no matter how accidental they may be. In the neutral end, he's still running and hiding in his dream world. His plot isn't resolved. Every end he dies, he's still running away. Only in the end where he finally tells everyone what happened does he make that first step to move on, and to stop hiding. The positivity lies in the hope of moving on.

[Double-D]

"To me, the positive atmosphere came from his decision to stop running away and to face the consequences, no matter what they may be. We never actually see how the friends react, so it's hard to say they just forgive him and Basil. If you think they did, it's totally up to you."

Ok, good point. And that's actually what I just can't buy. You can move on from accidentally doing something an then liying about it, but I don't think you can move on from doing something accidentally and then going extra mile to cover it up. You can cope with it, you maybe can even forgive yourself, but it will stay with you forever. Especially when you have 4 years to think about what you've done. I'll make an example: have you ever suddenly remembered any kind of dumb stuff you did as a kid? And it felt extremely cringy? I think everyone has these moments. And usually it's something really innocent, like saying something out of nowhere or embarassing yourself in some lame way. Now imagine you did something like Sunny did. Do you really think it's possible to let such a thing go? Well, maybe the pain will go away with time, but memories of the action itself will always stay with you. Probably till your last breath.
Who cares though? It's just a videogame.

I said that before. Be Sunny's crime anything less morbid - I'd be totally fine with how the game unraveled. The reveal in its present form seems overcomplicated and, basically, too shocking just for the sake of it. I'm not saying it's an edgelord level, but still.

And that's what grinds my gears - the game was that close to transform from "just a videogame" to an actual piece of art.

I can only hope that their next project (if it ever happens) will manage to do that. Sometimes a drop of subtelty makes all the difference.

[Vryheid]

Ah yes, the good ol' "video games aren't actually art unless I say so" argument. Let me ask you, would you call the character designs and sprite work art? Would you call the soundtrack artistic creations? If so, why does putting them together with some gameplay mechanics suddenly make it not artistic?

[Double-D]

Originally posted by Vryheid:

Ah yes, the good ol' "video games aren't actually art unless I say so" argument. Let me ask you, would you call the character designs and sprite work art? Would you call the soundtrack artistic creations? If so, why does putting them together with some gameplay mechanics suddenly make it not artistic?

I recommend you speak only for yourself and never speak for others - you're not very good at that.
Everything people do is technically art. Even this little thread. Or whatever Piero Manzoni did - look it up, might find it amusing. Unfortunately, some books are just books, some movies are just movies and some videogames are just videogames while others are, yes, pieces of art. It's all subjective, sure, but "WAP" and "Bohemian Rhapsody" are not in the same league, no argument about that.

The game we're discussing had a potential to become a best of the best, didn't managed to do so. I'm very sorry, better luck next time. Sadly, only time can tell who is right. Silent Hill series, Earthbound, DooM, Half-Life and a dozen of other great games (even semi-obscure like Yume Nikki) are warmly remembered decades after their release and managed to inspire (directly or not) other games and even series sometimes. Will the same thing happen to Omori? Personally, I don't think so. I could be wrong, so we'll see.

Also, I never adressed the game's visuals, sound design or any other technical or gameplay aspects - they are top-notch, so there's nothing to talk about, really.

[Sbeve]

it is implied in the game that basil saw sunny push mari down the stairs, so they would be two to carry her body first to her room, then to stage her death as a suicide by hanging. the one who had the idea to do that was basil; there is unused text in the truth album that basically reads that sunny was delirious after seeing that mari died, and kept praying he would wake up from his nightmare.

as for the gang forgiving them both? the only one i can see forgiving sunny and basil immediately is aubrey, who pushed basil into the lake accidentally (which parallels with sunny's situation when he was 4 years younger)

[lessthanoff]

@Double-D

"Well, maybe the pain will go away with time, but memories of the action itself will always stay with you. Probably till your last breath. Who cares though? It's just a videogame."

I still am not sure where you're getting this idea the game is trying to deliver this message of "Sunny's over it" from. Because, from what I can tell, it seems to be a huge foundation for your argument. And despite everyone explaining why they believe this foundation doesn't actually exist, you seem to really want to double down (no pun intended, haha) on it. Am I missing something?

Yes, Sunny smiled when his best friend woke up in the hospital. Yes, "Something" disappeared from both Sunny and Basil. But this can easily be interpreted to mean Sunny and Basil are no longer carrying the burden of their horrible secret, and are now able to move on. I personally never came close to seeing it as "Suddenly, they're both free of guilt and sadness."

As a matter of fact, even the lyrics of the ending credits song banish this notion: "Memories of the past, both good and bad, overwhelm me. There's so much I wish I could take back. Sometimes I think maybe it's too late. Though the pain remains. And though it may be hard. I'll carry on."

Sunny doesn't just magically get over what happened. And he probably never will. And that's the point of the ending, which I kind of feel like you keep overlooking. Sunny has taken the first step of many in a long road of mental healing, not just being like "lol, I'm good now."

"Silent Hill series, Earthbound, DooM, Half-Life and a dozen of other great games (even semi-obscure like Yume Nikki) are warmly remembered decades after their release and managed to inspire (directly or not) other games and even series sometimes. Will the same thing happen to Omori? Personally, I don't think so. I could be wrong, so we'll see."

This phenomenon is actually happening right now, despite the game only being out for a little over a month. I watched someone who played through the game recently, who said the ending of Omori inspired him to change how he had originally planned to handle the events of his own game. And I've been developing my own visual novel within the last several months, and I also have been inspired by Omori to handle certain aspects of it differently.

And as to whether it will be warmly remembered decades after its release, I can say this game affected me in a way no other game has before. So yes, I will remember this game for the rest of my life. And, while I can't speak for anyone else, it wouldn't really surprise me if I wasn't the only one who felt this way.

[lessthanoff]

@Double-D

One more thing.

"The protagonist goes through the same journey basically. Only where he went to hell and back, Sunny just had a fun magic adventure in his head"

I'm sure you're not trying to be insensitive, but I kind of take issue with this. Dissociative disorder is a real condition many people suffer from. And I doubt anyone who suffers from a similar variant of it (escaping into their dreams in order to avoid reality, while refusing to leave their house) would like it being downplayed in this way.

Sunny is described as malnourished and pale. He's shown to be unable to eat much without puking it up. He can barely even maneuver around his own house without suffering from a full-on panic attack each time. To suggest Sunny isn't suffering enough (compared to, say, James from Silent Hill 2), I think is inaccurate.

[Double-D]

@lessthanoff

"Sunny doesn't just magically get over what happened. And he probably never will. And that's the point of the ending, which I kind of feel like you keep overlooking. Sunny has taken the first step of many in a long road of mental healing, not just being like "lol, I'm good now."

Ok. With all respect, I don't think we can hear each other. Your points a perfectly valid. I'm speaking about how the game portrait all that it's trying to say. Most of what actually goes through characters head is vague. Sunny never talks (except his final line), so the only way we could know is through the sounds and visuals. And they are pretty lighthearted. Yes, we can take a peek at what actually happens via Black Space, but that's rather short. Should the main Headspace show more of the Black Space elements - we wouldn't have this discussion.

"I'm sure you're not trying to be insensitive, but I kind of take issue with this. Dissociative disorder is a real condition many people suffer from. And I doubt anyone who suffers from a similar variant of it (escaping into their dreams in order to avoid reality, while refusing to leave their house) would like it being downplayed in this way."

Yes it is, and the way most of media portraits said issues is rather... immature. Including this game. I never had dissociative disorder, but if anyone will tell me that, let's say, "Celeste" pictured depression in an accurate way - I'll doubt that person ever had real depression.
Life is way more brutal than any game can show. I learned it the hard way.

"Sunny is described as malnourished and pale. He's shown to be unable to eat much without puking it up. He can barely even maneuver around his own house without suffering from a full-on panic attack each time."

You are correct about that. There's still a "but" here. Yes, he threw up after eating. Once. And it's never mentioned again. I could tell it's just a case of a expired steak and, technically, wouldn't be wrong. Mind you, in the main Headspace our hero is consuming ridiculous amounts of food and drinks like it's nothing. And you can eat stuff as Sunny without any problems.
As for walking around the house and having panic attacks - again, valid point. If only we had more of it, because right now it's all goes like: "You are afraid of heights. Press "S" to go down the stairs. Press more. There, now you're not afraid of heights, let's never mention this again". Same story with spiders and open water. Of all things, Hero's fear of spiders is portrait way better: he's brave enough to actually go into spider-infested forest, but he's still afraid. Makes perfect sence to me.
Now, I understand what the game is trying to show me - overcoming one's fears. Great! If you consider it an achivement - all the best to you. For me it's just typical gameplay and story segregation. Nothing wrong with that, to be completely honest, just imagine how good it would be if the game managed to merge it all together.

"And as to whether it will be warmly remembered decades after its release, I can say this game affected me in a way no other game has before. So yes, I will remember this game for the rest of my life. And, while I can't speak for anyone else, it wouldn't really surprise me if I wasn't the only one who felt this way"

Jokes aside, I'm happy you can say that for yourself. I can't. For me it's just another good game. Ony time will tell if it's a cult classic.