Why am I able to so easily get into UFO 50 games, whereas I have struggled to get into so many actual arcade-style games in the past?

[benjymlewis]

Okay for example. I genuinely really like Caramel Caramel, which is odd because I have tried to play games like R-type, Gradius, and some other classic shoot-'em-ups, but have not been able to get much enjoyment out of them. Most recently I tried to play Super R-Type via the Nintendo Switch Online SNES app, but I just couldn't get into it. It felt slow and not very interesting. And I didn't enjoy how one slight brush of the stage walls meant having to do the entire level over from the beginning, when I didn't find it especially interesting the first time through. ...And also because you can overload your ship with a dozen different powerups that become visually overwhelming, it's too easy to lose track of where you are and what's going on. I suppose this is just a skill issue, but it didn't exactly entice me into trying to get better at the game.

The only classic shmup I have legitimately enjoyed and beaten multiple times for the sheer joy of it is Sega's Fantasy Zone, which I always attributed to the fact that it doesn't autoscroll and you can move across the level at your own pace. Fantasy Zone entirely avoids the problem of being slow-paced, and I love it for that. It also has delicious cheese strats versus the bosses, with careful and specific use of items such as the 16-ton weight to immediately kill a boss if you know to use it in the right spot. It feels so dynamic and interesting compared to basically every other classic shmup I've tried.

But Caramel Caramel IS an autoscroller, and it's a pretty slow one at that - yet I found it really good despite that? I enjoy the unique photograph system that lets you interact with the stage in a more interesting way than just shooting everything, and the harshness of the checkpointing (or lack thereof) somehow made me MORE determined to learn how to beat it - it didn't put me off entirely like Super R-Type's similar harsh checkpointing did. And I'm kinda just wondering why? What's the difference?
Is it because you can safely touch the walls in Caramel? Is it because I find photographing an interesting enough twist that keeps the game engaging? Or is it simply because the act of trying to cherry a game in UFO 50 Is enough of a motivator in and of itself, to gain more of that sweet UFO 50 meta-completion?

As someone who isn't exactly a shmup aficionado, I wouldn't want to jump to the conclusion that Caramel Caramel is actually just "better" than the majority of the well-renowned classic arcade shmups, because I don't have enough experience to make that kind of judgement. But...as a player, I definitely had a great time with Caramel Caramel, and I have yet to have a great time with any R-Type or Gradius or similar game, despite really trying. Is this just a "me" problem, or is there something else that UFO 50 has done that I'm not noticing?

[Aeralis]

It's because these aren't old games, they're old-styled games made with modern sensibilities. It's exactly as you said: old arcade games were janky and simple, whereas the UFO50 equivalents are made to look like they're janky and simple, but aren't actually. There are a lot of subtle things going on here to make them more modern, from less harsh punishments to added mechanics. (Think about how abysmally boring Valbrace would be if it didn't have its action combat.)

[Yuga-Suggah]

So, earlier I got really frustrated with 11oclocks rant on Mortol 2. Largely because the spikes completely ruined his experience. This is incredibly shortsided because the rest of the game is less punishing than Mortol 1 is. This knowledge should have been known at game 30. This isn't how you are playing the series.

I think its because you are willing to engage the game on its terms rather than on a genres terms. Shumps follow a very specific format which get better through learning all kinds of shumps. All have a range of difficulty, but almost all follow the same kind of style. Which if you don't like a few, you probably aren't going to like a lot of them.

Most if not all UFO 50 games, have pretty much the same gaming philosophy. Simplified controls, quick, but clearly understandable and avoidable deaths, a path to mastery, quick to replay and quick to learn how to play better and faster. Quick understanding, as aeralis said, are not simple to design. This game play loop can only come from years of understanding of how each game works, and decades of gameplay knowledge. So I think by engaging with the game as a collection of games, leads you to like types of games you probably wouldn't like normally.

Now, not every game is great in my point of view, but I do think that the loop can be taught by playing any game in any order. Which I think is pretty great.

But its also why I don't like when this game is played in order. I think I like Barbuta more now that I love Mortol 2.

I mean, I like star wasper now that I got better at Caramel.

[Yuga-Suggah]

That and Super R Type and Rtype 3 have some... problems.

[der.dida83]

They are much more refined and kinks ironed out than games in the past. You can't really compare modern games with all the lessons that were learned and the technial advances, which only choose to be retro with actual retro titles.

And Super Type was a bad Arcade Port Sadly. I had it as a kid and liked it well enough, but it was one of maybe 5 games I had back then and couldn't compare it to any other Shoot 'Em Up or Version.

I think if you have no connection from your childhood or teen years to retro games, you really need to get into a kind of beginner mindset, imagine there aren't a biziollion titles and you never heard terms like 4k, fps, lag and so on.

[benjymlewis]

Hmm interesting. So the fact that these games are all part of one cohesive collection really _does_ have an impact on how you approach each one individually That's fascinating to think about because it doesn't feel intuitive. The games are very much functional as standalone games, yet their inclusion with each other elevates them somehow.

I do in fact have a connection to retro games - I've been gaming since I was a kid in the 90s/00s, (born in 1991), and back then I was playing a lot of Sonic the Hedgehog, Legend of Zelda, Pokémon, Castlevania, Phantasy Star, Wario Land - all sorts of things. And i did also have CD-ROMS full of assorted miscellaneous MS-DOS freeware and shareware demos and stuff like that, so I got a taste of all sorts of weird non-sequitor games out of context (which is a feeling UFO 50 really manages to tap into).
So I don't think it's a matter of me not being connected to retro games.

So alright then, apparently Super R-Type for SNES in particular isn't a great one to stick with, so I may try some others. I picked it because it was easily accessible with my Switch subscription.

I think another aspect that might have an impact on my enjoyment could be the theming. I don't know about most players, but the generic space shooter theming bores me to death. That might be another reason why Fantasy Zone was one of the few arcade shmups to capture my interest, it's so silly and fun. So I may try a Parodius game next or something, maybe that'll be more my speed.

[der.dida83]

Originally posted by benjymlewis:

Hmm interesting. So the fact that these games are all part of one cohesive collection really _does_ have an impact on how you approach each one individually That's fascinating to think about because it doesn't feel intuitive. The games are very much functional as standalone games, yet their inclusion with each other elevates them somehow.

I do in fact have a connection to retro games - I've been gaming since I was a kid in the 90s/00s, (born in 1991), and back then I was playing a lot of Sonic the Hedgehog, Legend of Zelda, Pokémon, Castlevania, Phantasy Star, Wario Land - all sorts of things. And i did also have CD-ROMS full of assorted miscellaneous MS-DOS freeware and shareware demos and stuff like that, so I got a taste of all sorts of weird non-sequitor games out of context (which is a feeling UFO 50 really manages to tap into).
So I don't think it's a matter of me not being connected to retro games.

So alright then, apparently Super R-Type for SNES in particular isn't a great one to stick with, so I may try some others. I picked it because it was easily accessible with my Switch subscription.

I think another aspect that might have an impact on my enjoyment could be the theming. I don't know about most players, but the generic space shooter theming bores me to death. That might be another reason why Fantasy Zone was one of the few arcade shmups to capture my interest, it's so silly and fun. So I may try a Parodius game next or something, maybe that'll be more my speed.

Parodius is definetely a good choice, I think these are some of the best Shoot 'em Ups.

In general I do think whatever you grew up with, the nostalgia really lets you overlook some of the flaws, that you notice in games you didn't have as a kid... and also the getting used to high and stable frame rates (where a lot of great SNES titles had terrible frame rate dips) really dimishes the experience with old titles.

I for example, had a Gameboy, SNES, N64 and so on, but I decided against buying a NES back then (in favor of Gameboy) and although I ackowledge there are great titles on NES, I find is much harder to get into those than Gameboy and SNES titles and of course the SEGA-line and PSX ;)

And I really feel like these UFO50 titles are much more refined and modern, even the simple titles, no way they would have been released like that in the 80s/90s.

Also especially the Shoot Em Up market was really flooded back then, but is actually is a pretty limiting genre (imo) so you find a lot of similar mechanics and I couldn't think of a lot stand-out titles that still hold up.

To list a few on top of my head: Parodius-Series, Aleste (I think different title in the US), Rtype Series - Arcade Versions are great - 2 and 3 are good on SNES, Axelay, maybe this helicopter/tank game ... was it Silkworm ?

[Yuga-Suggah]

Honestly though, Genesis does shumps better and I am a HUGE fan boy for the Super. I think. I THINK, that the shumps here are more closely inspired to the Genesis and MAYBE Master System, and not SNES, but I could be squarely wrong.

https://racketboy.com/retro/the-sega-genesis-megadrive-shmup-library

But anyway back to your point. It's one of the reasons why I think ranking games in a tier list before you play the whole set, just isn't fair.

I can see somebody doing it for the first 10 MAYBE 20 games, especially if you are not gold-ing or cherry-ing. At a certain point however, there is an overall gameplay philosophy that is very very hard to ignore. Either its the hidden modern elements, or whatever else was said here. Because the mechanics are all there, even in Barbuta. Sure some of the harder games are "earlier" but I do think the series is stronger as a collection because it teaches you well how to play "it".

[Tatra]

A minor factor may just be aspect ratio. For something like Caramel Caramel in particular, you can see enemies coming way sooner than you would if the game was the actual 8 or 16 bit consoles or home computers from the time. That makes it feel fairer (if not actually easier) because you have time to see what's coming and respond, and more room to move around in to actually handle things. 4:3 arcade games often felt quite constrained and some of them felt rather reliant on pattern memorisation over in-the-moment reaction... which isn't necessarily worse, just different.

[der.dida83]

Originally posted by Yuga-Suggah:

Honestly though, Genesis does shumps better and I am a HUGE fan boy for the Super. I think. I THINK, that the shumps here are more closely inspired to the Genesis and MAYBE Master System, and not SNES, but I could be squarely wrong.

https://racketboy.com/retro/the-sega-genesis-megadrive-shmup-library

But anyway back to your point. It's one of the reasons why I think ranking games in a tier list before you play the whole set, just isn't fair.

I can see somebody doing it for the first 10 MAYBE 20 games, especially if you are not gold-ing or cherry-ing. At a certain point however, there is an overall gameplay philosophy that is very very hard to ignore. Either its the hidden modern elements, or whatever else was said here. Because the mechanics are all there, even in Barbuta. Sure some of the harder games are "earlier" but I do think the series is stronger as a collection because it teaches you well how to play "it".

thanks for the list, Wow, I never knew there were so many on Genesis, I think I heard of 2 and played 0, so I'm very unfit to judge the statement ;)

Yeah, the aspect ratio may really be a factor, you get a bit more eased into it, I guess....

[Yuga-Suggah]

Originally posted by der.dida83:

thanks for the list, Wow, I never knew there were so many on Genesis, I think I heard of 2 and played 0, so I'm very unfit to judge the statement ;)

It was news to me up until 5 years ago. More importantly, it was news to the author of the article.

[HH-Li]

Originally posted by der.dida83:

Originally posted by Yuga-Suggah:

Honestly though, Genesis does shumps better and I am a HUGE fan boy for the Super. I think. I THINK, that the shumps here are more closely inspired to the Genesis and MAYBE Master System, and not SNES, but I could be squarely wrong.

https://racketboy.com/retro/the-sega-genesis-megadrive-shmup-library

But anyway back to your point. It's one of the reasons why I think ranking games in a tier list before you play the whole set, just isn't fair.

I can see somebody doing it for the first 10 MAYBE 20 games, especially if you are not gold-ing or cherry-ing. At a certain point however, there is an overall gameplay philosophy that is very very hard to ignore. Either its the hidden modern elements, or whatever else was said here. Because the mechanics are all there, even in Barbuta. Sure some of the harder games are "earlier" but I do think the series is stronger as a collection because it teaches you well how to play "it".

thanks for the list, Wow, I never knew there were so many on Genesis, I think I heard of 2 and played 0, so I'm very unfit to judge the statement ;)

Yeah, the aspect ratio may really be a factor, you get a bit more eased into it, I guess....

TurboGrafx-16 is also known for good shmup games

https://racketboy.com/retro/the-turbografx-16-pc-engine-shmup-library-pt-1-exclusives

[Yuga-Suggah]

Yeah, the Turbo is more known for its shumps but less known in general.

I’m really bad at guessing where the Turbo, ZX, or the Commodore64 fits in with the retro inspired games. Feels right tho to bring in these comparisons.

[11clock]

For me it's the gifts and gold/cherry disks. While I don't usually care for achievements, when they add tangible interesting goals to go for, it keeps me going for longer. The gift has me give the game an honest shot, and if I like the game enough I keep going for the gold, or even cherry in some cases.

It also helps that the arcade games are really short, and generally don't require god-like skills to beat.

[Triplefox]

I think a major factor here is that UFO50 is a complete design from a small number of people over a long period. What you're playing is the collective sensibilities and taste of Derek, Jon, et al., and they didn't use a formulaic production cycle of "release game 1, release game 2, release game 3", they developed all the games together incrementally. As a result, it ends up being very dense and self-aware in its design relative to most released games: UFO50's games exist simultaneously, so you don't see "progression" from one game to the next, you see alternative choices and philosophies around the goals of the design. Even the clunky games like Barbuta and Combatants demonstrate an understanding of the kind of "troll the player" experience they are striving for. It's not a mistake that Combatants has a cruel level 3 - even a small amount of playtesting would bring that to attention - it's an intentional decision to allow this part of the experience to remain awkward and unbalanced.

The historical game industry was not like this; a bunch of kids with some skills and enthusiasm would be brought in, told by their financial backers to fill shelf space by cloning last year's hit, crunched for a few years, then burned out as another batch came in and the technical landscape shifted. It was effectively a completely different industry every 4 years, and the enthusiasm of players at the time was also based on seeing a "glimpse of the future" - there wasn't a game-literate audience, there was just the novel phenomenon of seeing graphics on the screen and interacting with it. This heavily biased everything towards the production end of things: it didn't matter that the new game had less depth than the old game if it had more graphics and was marginally easier to consume. But this also means that to engage with earlier games, in many cases you have to accept that the game is a pile of audiovisual assets poorly glued together, and if you like it, it's because it's cool to see sci-fi Giger monsters and barbarians swinging swords and hear clanky FM synth music and grainy sampled voices.

Edit: And one way I would examine "autoscrolling shooters" historically is to look at their earliest forms - games like Scramble and Vanguard. The core of the experience is usually defined in the first iteration, and then everything afterwards is a clone that added some graphics and sometimes changed the idea in a way that makes it harder to come to terms with.

[Falkentyne]

Originally posted by Yuga-Suggah:

Yeah, the Turbo is more known for its shumps but less known in general.

I’m really bad at guessing where the Turbo, ZX, or the Commodore64 fits in with the retro inspired games. Feels right tho to bring in these comparisons.

The C64 had some good arcade ports (with slightly less fidelity than the NES/famicom console), although some rather questionable ones. Some of their ports were actually similar to the Atari 800/5200 ports, but played much worse (Pac-man for example, on the C64, didn't have the intact monster personalities that the 5200 had).

UF0 50 reminds me alot of those old "underground" floppy disk game collections where you sometimes had 10-20 arcade games on a disk, that you copied from one of your school friends, back when you were a kid and most of those games were a blast to play (back when you couldn't play the "real" thing or didn't have money for the arcade).