Rogue Balance

[꧁MasterMeus꧂]

I just completed a Rogue run in which hardly any enemy had a single turn.

Equipped Throwing Knives (even 1Star works, but 3Star was easier)
Talents that provide too many dash/leap
Slim deck consisting of Master Stalk and three copies of Master Open 'Em Up
other cards included minions to buff my hero power upon summon.

In opening turn, being able to apply 6 Bleed and attack 17 times was simply disastrous.

[dumb]

Thanks mate, been looking for this sort of feedback, Will nerf this - Got any feelings on where you'd like the class to go?

[꧁MasterMeus꧂]

I am not sure that I can provide much constructive criticism for the Rogue specifically. My issue is with the hero balance in general.

I have said it a few times on here recently and do not want to sound like a broken record. But the heroes are too strong. I frequently get a ranged weapon with penetrate and high power (6+) then stack knockback/ignite when able. Additionally, having a deck of 10 or less means I can recycle my combos every round.

Warrior: Spear-3, Wandering Wall, and a deck of minions that boost power by 1. Utilize Block on minions to prevent getting pinned.

Mage: Range 3 Staff with Strong Arm, and hide behind the soldier that copies itself upon death. Meanwhile stacking +1 spell damage until I can one-shot enemy with 5-strike missile spell.

Rogue: As stated above, stack bleed and multistrike.


The best direction I can provide would be get rid of the Stalk spell, or make it adjacent enemies and also cost 1. Being able to stack 3 Marked at range is too good. (Possibly keep as is but only target minions).
I think the Critical mechanic is fun and unique, but needs to be more minion dependent (Accomplice). I was able to run insane combos without any minions on the board.
Additionally, it may be overly complicated but I think manually discarding cards is too powerful. Maybe have them vanish for the turn they are discarded (essentially exhaust but not trigger exhaust effects) then appear in the graveyard after ending the turn. I was able to discard 2 or 3 cost minions then spell summon two of them for only 1 mana. Or re-use sleight of hand with the shovel treasure.

[dumb]

I've read your other comments as well on hero power, and I agree - I'm trying to pull their power levels back a little without going too far, as at the start of development, the heroes felt a little useless compared to minions.

I've made some changes to rogue that should come through today or tomorrow, let me know what you think when they get pushed to Steam!

[꧁MasterMeus꧂]

Oof! haha, that strategy just got annihilated.
Haven't played it yet, but they look to be good changes.

Open 'Em Up applied 2 bleed for 1 mana, while a treasure only applied 1 bleed for 1 mana. I did not expect the mana increase, but it looks fair and appropriate.

First experiment will be if the Stalk copies are free. I think it would add an interesting pacing if killing the target every round provided free Stalk copies. It would reward minion targeting and board control.

[꧁MasterMeus꧂]

I brought it up as a potential bug. However, if Master One-Two is intentionally free it would add a very interesting dynamic.
It would be extremely powerful, but require many Marked and forethought to execute with successive critical strikes. And not simply be an overpowered mallet.

[dumb]

Master One-Two is intentionally 0 cost, as I still want to promote combo based gameplay for Rogue - Just don't want it to be trivially easy to pop off. Stalk copies will also be 1 cost, but I like the idea - I might look to some cost-reduction pieces for the next content push once we get these cards locked down and balanced.

[꧁MasterMeus꧂]

Another example of manually discarding cards being too powerful:

Flurry of Knives costs three because it is extremely powerful.
If you apply Marked to an enemy hero, stand next to him, manually discard Flurry of Knives, then play Master One-Two. For zero cost you deal three damage and follow up with four strikes of hero damage.

This only uses two cards, one Marked, and zero mana.
Granted I may be exploiting these strategies because I prefer slim decks. These cards are difficult to balance when comparing an 8 card deck to a 30 card deck.

EDIT: I managed to do this in battle 1 of my rogue run using 'Gang.' It cost 1 mana and only dealt 1 damage and two instances of hero damage, but still very powerful and reliable.

EDIT2: Oh my! 'Natural 20' Talent applies to the same discarded card when used in conjunction with Master One-Two.

Scenario 1, No Accomplice, Hero Power 2:
Stalk, discard Flurry of Knives, Master One-Two.
3 damage + 8 damage + 8 damage = 19 damage, cost 1 mana (zero attacks used)

Scenario 2, No Accomplice, Hero Power 3:
Stalk, discard Flurry of Knives, Master One-Two.
3 damage + 12 damage + 12 damage = 27 damage, cost 1 mana (zero attacks used)

Scenario 3, Shady Archer (1Star w/ 2 power), Hero Power 3:
Shady attack, Hero attack, Flurry of Knives (cast), Master One-Two.
2 + 3 + 12 + 3 + 12 + 12 = 44 damage, cost 3 mana (one hero attack used)

Scenario three is extremely powerful, but requires planning and proper execution. The potential is WAY too high, but possibly leave it as a reward to players that can accomplish it. I do not want to be the reason that every viable rogue gets nerfed...
However, the first two scenarios are way too powerful for too little effort. Not sure how to fix it without changing manual discarding mechanics.

[꧁MasterMeus꧂]

Jut finished my Ascension 2 with the new Rogue changes. Except for the simple combo noted above, I REALLY liked where the Rogue is at now. I crushed every enemy but I did it with Helm Banner and Thug (Accomplice) with spell Critical combos. It felt really good!

Helm Rogue 'Gang'
Maxed One-Two, and Flurry of Knives.
Picked up Welcome Back and maxed it.
Used Welcome Back to spawn Rager and Banner for 1 mana.
Picked up Stalk and Cheap Shot, maxing both eventually.
Claimed Natural 20, then Multistrike +2.
Utilized 12ish cards in deck to consistently trigger combos, walked through fights with Multistrike and Flurry of Knives.
Floor 3 trimmed down to 8 cards to 'Prove Worth' then obliterated Hydra with Power 7 and 5 Hero Attacks.

Thanks for the changes Jammy!!!

[dumb]

Thank you for your feedback MasterMeus! Good to hear you're having fun. For now I will leave that combo - Let me know how effective it is on later Ferocity levels.

[VorpalSnark]

2 Master Card Tricks + slim deck + 2 Sleights of Hand (or any other retrieve from discard to hand or draw card like Ornate Spade) is infinite energy. You discard Card Tricks to get 3, get it back for 1, discard again to get 3, get back for 1, play Card Trick for 3 to get 3 cards back for total plus 1 energy. Repeat until you're bored, then you can spam any damage spell like Flurry of Knives to kill everything on the board.
And I'm not even talking about perk that doubles effect from discards, with it making an infinite combo becomes even easier. Basically, Card Trick's discard ability is game-breaking and should be changed. The only way I can see it being balanced (if you don't change it to do something else instead of giving energy) is if it exhausts when discarded. Otherwise, given the double discard effect perk, there will always be ways to go infinite.

Btw, unskippable animations for everything become incredibly irritating when you play a combo deck like this. Discard a card - wait for animation, play a card - wait for animation, cast a spell on enemy - wait for animation, hit enemy - wait for animation (and then repeat 15 times because you have truckload of multistrike), bump enemy into a wall with knockback - wait for animation, enemy has "changed intent on getting damage" - wait for animation, twice because thanks knockback, wouldn't have picked that perk in the early game if I knew.
Basically, can we get a fast mode that minimizes delay between times when you can actually do something? It's really annoying to wait so much between every action.

[꧁MasterMeus꧂]

YES! I love this guy!
'Strikers' deck starts with Card Trick and Sleight of Hand, but has no teeth. At or above Ferocity 10 I don't see that deck making it through the first locked door. It could be a good strategy for 'Gang' but you have to draw the combo, so it is a bit more difficult.

As far as the animation speed. I hate the Chaos Elemental too, lol. But the time investment is a drawback to a deck like this and essentially nerfs the strategy. If you want to bash your forehead against a wall for three hours, enjoy the free win, otherwise find a new strategy XD

[Influx]

Originally posted by VorpalSpork:

Btw, unskippable animations for everything become incredibly irritating when you play a combo deck like this. Discard a card - wait for animation, play a card - wait for animation, cast a spell on enemy - wait for animation, hit enemy - wait for animation (and then repeat 15 times because you have truckload of multistrike), bump enemy into a wall with knockback - wait for animation, enemy has "changed intent on getting damage" - wait for animation, twice because thanks knockback, wouldn't have picked that perk in the early game if I knew.
Basically, can we get a fast mode that minimizes delay between times when you can actually do something? It's really annoying to wait so much between every action.

Game speed setting now has a little bit more speed you can set. It kinda makes the game feel like watching sonic the hedgehog but it's up to your taste :)

[VorpalSnark]

Originally posted by Influx:

Game speed setting now has a little bit more speed you can set. It kinda makes the game feel like watching sonic the hedgehog but it's up to your taste :)

Thanks, I'll try it out.

[VorpalSnark]

Faster speed feels great.