Black Book

Black Book

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Ouroboros Aug 29, 2021 @ 12:54pm
Seal of Death... [Spoilers]
Okay, so, throwing Egor, a near-sociopath who killed the main character's fiancee and has no moral compass into the fire, is worth +50 sin. Throwing Alexander, an admittedly crazy guy who's main motive is trying to improve the world... is worth 0. Okay, sure. Either it should be worth 50 sin either way, or throwing Alexander should be worse than throwing Egor. Yes, he raised Vasilisa, but he is, objectively, a /significantly/ worse person. There's only so far 'respect your elders' can stretch, and I think it ends well short of Egor. And if you want to say it's because Alexander tried to steal the book from Vasilisa... again, Egor /literally killed her fiancee/
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Showing 1-15 of 15 comments
Landorf Aug 29, 2021 @ 3:46pm 
What do you mean by "throwing Alexander?" It looks like i missed something important there...
adhdedrn Aug 29, 2021 @ 4:19pm 
Originally posted by Landorf:
What do you mean by "throwing Alexander?" It looks like i missed something important there...

When you're in his study and invisible, you have the option of opening the study windows, which overlook a wrought iron spiked fence. If you choose to kill him, he goes out the window and gets impaled on the spikes.
Last edited by adhdedrn; Aug 29, 2021 @ 4:51pm
adhdedrn Aug 29, 2021 @ 4:50pm 
My headcanon on the matter is that the invisibility granted to you by the fern flower also makes you invisible to God, which is why it's so sought-after - imagine what you could do if God was never going to judge you for it.

Alexander's death gets you no Sin because, from God's perspective, the window opened by itself, you were defending yourself when he attacked you, and him going out the window was an accident.

Egor, meanwhile, was actively sacrificed by Vasilisa to Satan in exchange for more power, which is Super F♥♥♥ing Evil, and because Vasilisa wasn't invisible, God totally saw that so she gets All The Sin. Yes, he murdered your fiance, but you're supposed to bring him to God's judgement for that, not do it yourself.

(Also, since this is probably relevant, I didn't kill either of them in my playthrough)
Last edited by adhdedrn; Aug 29, 2021 @ 4:58pm
Ouroboros Aug 29, 2021 @ 5:23pm 
That's not what I meant; you can convince Alexander to give up on the book and go with you to the crossroads... and then sacrifice him to open the seal of death, which does not grant sin, despite the fact that choosing to sacrifice Egor instead /does/.
Last edited by Ouroboros; Aug 29, 2021 @ 5:24pm
adhdedrn Aug 29, 2021 @ 5:29pm 
Originally posted by Ouroboros:
That's not what I meant; you can convince Alexander to give up on the book and go with you to the crossroads... and then sacrifice him to open the seal of death, which does not grant sin, despite the fact that choosing to sacrifice Egor instead /does/.

Oh. I didn't know that bit. Yikes.

Now that you mention that bit, that doesn't make sense. Maybe there's some cultural nuance to this that we're missing...
Ouroboros Aug 29, 2021 @ 5:58pm 
I /think/ the sin is probably due to ...whatever the grandparent equivalent of fratricide is? Despite the fact that Egor practically gives you permission to do it, /and/ is a significantly worse person... like, yes, maybe family gets a /bit/ more leeway, but not 'forgiven for killing my bethrothed and trying to control my life' amounts of leeway.
Urfarah Aug 30, 2021 @ 9:05pm 
How was Alexander trying to help the world though? His wish was literally to enslave chorts and rule as a Koldun Emperor. Sure, he says that his wish would make life be better for everyone but would you really trust the guy who just cursed the wedding of two innocents solely to get his hands on your Book?

He's not worse than Egor, in theory, and he is not unreasonable, ok, but he is not a good person either. The whole point is that it's very difficult to be a Koldun, play around with chorts and curses and remain a good person, despite a person's best intentions.

As for that scene... Yeah, considering that by then you had convinced Alexander to give up on his plan, help you against his own master and then help you against Egor, sacrificing him should be sinful too, I totally agree. But about Egor... he is complicated. He's definitely not a good person, nor is he trying to be one, but there's a clear logic behind all of his sins. In his mind, every sacrifice he's made is justifiable because it will be undone by his wish. If his wish came true, the Black Book would have stayed in its tower, where it had spent centuries, without being rediscovered and, thus, none of the events of the game would have come to pass. The tragedy of it all is that the wish was an illusion, a misinterpretation perpetuated by the legend, so, Egor's desire would never have been realized and all of his sacrifices were ultimately in vain. In the end, there is no magical solution for evil acts and emotional pain (his wish was clearly largely influenced by his traumatic relationship with Prokopy).

Sacrificing Egor is sinful because, I imagine, of your relationship with him and because the act itself of sacrificing someone to break the seal is sinful (you are sacrificing a person's life for your individual wish, there's no getting around that). The only good choice in that scene is sacrificing the Book itself.

PS.: Also, I don't think the game registers sacrificing Alexander correctly. I did it for the lulz and he appeared alive during the ending scene. Totally awkward.

PPS.: About Vasilisa's fiancé, note how, during that fateful scene, Egor emphasizes that he wasn't a good person, that he wasn't who Vasilisa thought he was. At the time, it might have seemed that Egor was only trying to justify the murder he commited. But later, when in Hell, Satan gloats that he was your fiancé all along and asks you to rule Hell by his side. That may have been him trying to fool Vasilisa in order to seduce her... but, I don't know, it seems plausible he was telling the truth. And if he was, that would shine a whole new light on Egor's actions. I kicked Satan's ass so I don't know what would have happened if I had chosen to marry him instead. Maybe something would have changed.
Last edited by Urfarah; Aug 31, 2021 @ 12:39am
Ouroboros Aug 31, 2021 @ 7:17pm 
I never said Alexander was /good/ at being a good person, but trying counts for something. Do I trust him? No. But he's less deserving of death than Egor. Although making either sacrifice worth 50 sin would also make sense. I'm pretty sure his death DID register properly, since in my playthrough, the ending mentioned that his house was abandoned.

I don't think Satan actually /is/ Vasilisa's fiance, I think that was just him maliciously interpreting her wish. In the good ending where you destroy the book (I had a total sin of 0 at the ending, so I'm not sure if it would be the same with higher sin), she's implied to be reunited with her fiance in heaven.
Urfarah Aug 31, 2021 @ 8:10pm 
Hmmm, good to know. I only did the sinful ending so far. Taking some time off until I go for the 0 sin run. Gonna reload my save during the last chapter later to know if choosing to be the bride of Satan gives any new information.

When I sacrificed Alexander, the ending mentioned him surviving the events of the game, only to be killed later during the russian revolution. It was weird. Maybe something bugged on my save but I don't know what since everything else was fine.

I agree that sacrificing him should at least give as much sin as sacrificing Egor. Beyond the fact that Egor, despite his somewhat noble reasons, commited terrible sins throughout his life (like the revelation that he had killed the wife of the Hunter that appears in the wolf seal chapter and blamed it on the Leshy), there's the fact that when Alexander is in that scene he's there specifically to help Vasilisa, after showing remorse for his actions. So sacrificing him is a pretty terrible betrayal.
Last edited by Urfarah; Aug 31, 2021 @ 8:12pm
CROATOA Aug 31, 2021 @ 11:27pm 
Originally posted by Ouroboros:
I never said Alexander was /good/ at being a good person, but trying counts for something. Do I trust him? No. But he's less deserving of death than Egor. Although making either sacrifice worth 50 sin would also make sense. I'm pretty sure his death DID register properly, since in my playthrough, the ending mentioned that his house was abandoned.

I don't think Satan actually /is/ Vasilisa's fiance, I think that was just him maliciously interpreting her wish. In the good ending where you destroy the book (I had a total sin of 0 at the ending, so I'm not sure if it would be the same with higher sin), she's implied to be reunited with her fiance in heaven.
There's no need to have 0 sins for this ending, you can achieve it with sins below 100.
CROATOA Aug 31, 2021 @ 11:40pm 
Also giving +50 sins for killing Egor and 0 sins for killing Alexander is a very russian thing to do, even if Egor is a homicidal psychopath he's still your family. In many unedited folktales evil != bad and kind != good.
Echidna Sep 1, 2021 @ 12:27am 
I guess the option to throw Alexander was an afterthought and they just forgot to consider giving out sins for that. It should give you 50 sins no matter the context because burning the insane lady that fed Nikolay's friend to monster log is also 50 sins even though that's easily the most justified murder in the game.
Greix Oct 19, 2021 @ 9:08pm 
Finished the game yesterday. I think it was a bug as I got +50 sin for tossing Alexander below.
Katangen Oct 25, 2021 @ 8:25am 
I agree. I literally screamed out in shock as I the game gave me +50 Sin for killing him. Not only, as you mention, did he kill Vasilisa's fiancee, but his plan from the get go was to manipulate her into opening the seals for him, and then kill her to open the last seal. Besides, he wasn't even human at that point, and we've been killing demons with no Sin penalty for the entirety of the game.

Now, you could argue that Egor's goal was also a good one - his wish would have gotten rid of the Black Book and is in every way just as selfish as Vasilisa's. However, the dude went the completely wrong way about it. He could have literally talked to Vasilisa and asked her to throw in a lil' extra something for him when making her wish, lmao. If Alexander could theoretically wish for so much change, I don't see why Vasilisa couldn't have made a wish that benefited both her and Egor.
Adric Nov 21, 2021 @ 7:57pm 
Originally posted by Ouroboros:
I don't think Satan actually /is/ Vasilisa's fiance, I think that was just him maliciously interpreting her wish. In the good ending where you destroy the book (I had a total sin of 0 at the ending, so I'm not sure if it would be the same with higher sin), she's implied to be reunited with her fiance in heaven.

Agreed. I don't recall Egor saying anything about Vasilisa's fiancé being a bad person. Alexander tells Vasilisa that Egor is not who she thinks he is (and he's right) but all Egor says about Vasilisa's fiancé is that he wasn't worthy of her, likely because he was just a peasant and he views both Vasilisa and himself as being better than that (e.g. his mocking desccription of Vasilisa wanting to just be a peasant and get married, instead of being a powerful koldun). Egor clearly believes he was doing Vasilisa a favor and elevating her above the normal village people.

Regarding the OP, I didn't push Egor or Alexander in, and didn't want to die by jumping in so I chucked the book.

Originally posted by WarChaser:
I agree. I literally screamed out in shock as I the game gave me +50 Sin for killing him. Not only, as you mention, did he kill Vasilisa's fiancee, but his plan from the get go was to manipulate her into opening the seals for him, and then kill her to open the last seal. Besides, he wasn't even human at that point, and we've been killing demons with no Sin penalty for the entirety of the game.

Now, you could argue that Egor's goal was also a good one - his wish would have gotten rid of the Black Book and is in every way just as selfish as Vasilisa's.

I kind of thought that as well about Egor planning to sacrifice Vasilisa, but then I remembered Alexander mentioning being kept prisoner inside Egor's izba and having a hard time getting out. Given all that Egor feels that he did for Vasilisa, regardless of how much of that is clearly rationalizing his terrible actions, I don't think he would have killed her to break the seal; rather, I think he hoped Vasilisa would kill Alexander or he had been thinking of killing Alexander himself to break the seal.

Egor also tells Vasilisa to give him the book because it isn't an easy thing to break the last seal, and she should let him do it since he is old and beyond forgiveness. This implies he wants to spare her soul the stain of killing to break the seal, which seems an odd way to behave if he had intended to kill her. Of course, he could have been lying, or rationalizing some more, but when she says she forgives him, he proceeds to tell her that he killed her fiancé. so it seems unlikely he was lying.

I think Vasilisa's degree of selfishness depends on how she is played by individual players. If she freely - or at least grudgingly - curses people with chorts and doesn't go out of her way to help others (saving the rusalka, saving the various transformed wedding guests, all the optional tasks) then yeah, definitely rather selfish. If, on the other hand, she is played as I did - never cursed anyone and took all the brunt of the chort debuffs, did all of the optional things to help people, used an all-white deck the back half of the game, and never even incurred 1 point of sin - well, in that case, it feels like she is taking the cost of the black book and being a koldun onto herself instead of pushing it off on others and makes her substantially less selfish, in my eyes anyway.

Granted, it's still rather narrow to only want to use the power of a wish to give you the one thing you want, but she also went through a lot and did a lot of hard work to get to that point. Me, I'm annoyed there is no achievement for 0 sin or for never using your chorts on anything but meaningless tasks. That was not easy in the first few chapters.
Last edited by Adric; Nov 21, 2021 @ 8:06pm
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